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Let's Discuss M4 Bayonets & M8/A1 Scabbards |
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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Posted: Aug 27 2016 at 9:15pm |
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I haven't noticed M1 Carbine Bayonets being discussed in the forum yet, so I thought I'd offer up mine to begin some conversation on the subject. I bought this bayonet and scabbard at a gun show in Moscow, Idaho in 1984. I was attending Washington State University at the time, and Moscow was 8 miles away, and offered the only gun show close by. I believe I paid $15 for it. The bayonet and scabbard are both definitely well used. The scabbard has a slight manufacturing defect, in that the metal guard that attaches to the plastic reinforced cloth scabbard body is slightly off angle. I have looked at it many times, and it was made that way. It still works fine, though.
The bayonet is M4 and the scabbard is M8. The interesting thing about this bayonet is that it has a wooden handle with broad serrations, and the wood appears to be Asian. I saw a lot of hardwoods from Asia in a former job, and this seems similar to some that I have seen. It's definitely not a North American wood. Here's what 4 different sources indicate about it: M.H. Cole Knife Book: - USM8 Type 1 Scabbard made by B.M. Co. - Probably Asian hardwood handle - Handle replacement probably done overseas after original leather deteriorated (This is supported by blade condition) - Two brown plastic spacers at ends of handle (Mine has one end piece covered with very thin strip of black electrical tape) - "M4 Utica" Marking - Cole No. 26 Janzen Bayonet Book: - Cites Cole - Indicates handle replacement was probably done in forward areas of combat Kiesling Bayonet Book: - Scabbard is plastic reinforced cloth Ruth War Baby III: - Bayonet is on page 1329 - Scabbard is on page 1331 - He calls it an M8 with short frog scabbard Here are some photos. I apologize for the iPhone photos...If a better shot is wanted, I can accommodate. I welcome any comments on this bayonet, or perhaps this thread can develop into a repository for member bayonet photos and details. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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weimar_police
On Point Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: near Philly Status: Offline Points: 69 |
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I picked up a number of bayonets, then learned what they were. Couple of Garand, couple of M1 Carbine and one M14.
Picked up a new in the wrapper (believe it was a arsenal refurb) at the local Allentown Show. Will try to get pictures later. BTW, when I retired from the army, my wife took a job at the Vet College at WSU, and we lived in Palouse (2000-2003) - left only because I was offered a position near Denver, kind of wished I had stayed in WA :) Here is one on the wall - It is an Underwood - the Thompson is a deactivated one - the entire receiver is solid :) But it looks cool. |
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Edward Tinker
************ Co-Author of Police Lugers 2012 Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I / Vol II and Vol III Co-Author of the book Simson Lugers |
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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weimar_police, I spent my Freshman year (1984-85) at WSU in the Rogers Hall dorm in Pullman, and it was a great year. I was there with several Hawaii buddies who I had attended Punahou with from 6th grade through high school. It was a beautiful area, with rolling wheat fields, and was close to the mountains in Idaho, and lots of other scenic areas. I remember WSU had a very good veterinary program. I liked the giant moose they had on display. I ended up moving to Texas after my Freshman year, and lived in Austin for the next 21 years. Very cool that you lived in Palouse... I've tried to obtain bayonets with every military firearm I own. I'm only missing a couple. Their study can become a world of its own. M.H. Cole did the deepest study of M1 Carbine bayonets and scabbards that I know of to date, and I think there's probably more information that can be discovered. I'm sure the CCNL covered bayonets at some point, though I don't think I have those copies. Can anyone point to a more detailed study of M1 Carbine bayonets than M.H. Cole provided in his books? David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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Among the M1 Carbine books, the Riesch book, in my opinion, has the best overall review of the history, and the specifics of M4 Bayonets, as well as the M3 Knife that preceded it. However, the M.H. Cole book covers them in the most detail, since his book(s) are focused only on bayonets and knives.
Riesch refers to my bayonet as having been refurbished post war, possibly to test different materials that eventually standardized on plastic halves with 2 screws in 1956. He indicates that my M8 Scabbard has a fiberglass body, which is what I also perceive. "Plastic reinforced cloth" is what Kiesling called it, which I guess is really a description of fiberglass, although the plastic is really a resin, and maybe resin is considered plastic, but that is getting into the minutiae. Riesch calls my scabbard a "Type II," which I believe is his own designation, and differs with Cole's scabbard designations. Since Cole designated everything first, I tend to want to use his "Type !" designation. Riesch indicates M8 Scabbards manufactured by B.M. Co. were made during WWII. The Harrison book also has a 2-page illustrated guide to M3/M4 Knives/Bayonets, and M6, M8, and M8A1 scabbards. He indicates that my M8 Scabbard came out in 1944. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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Does anyone else have M4 Bayonets, and/or M8/M8A1 Scabbards that they would like to share? I was hoping this post would generate more interest than it has so far on the subject.
David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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OK, I'll continue to add to the conversation I'm having with myself on this subject...:-)
Today, I acquired the Gary M. Cunningham book titled, "U.S. Knife Bayonets and Scabbards," which was published in August, 2015. It has excellent coverage of the M4 Bayonet, and the M8/M8A1 Scabbards. On the subject of my M4 bayonet with the Asian wooden handles, it has a photo that clearly shows one in use in combat by Turkish troops in Korea in April, 1952. He indicates that little is known about the replacement handles, but they are speculated to have been made in either Okinawa, or the Philippines, sometime between the end of WWII, and prior to the start of the Korean War. Mr. Cunningham's book has production data for the M8 and M8A1 Scabbards by month. He indicates that approximately 1.7 million of the M8 Scabbards were made between July, 1943, and April, 1944. In April, 1944, production changed to the M8A1 Scabbard, and 3,125,000 of them were made up until August, 1945. The M8 Scabbard was initially produced to replace the leather M6 Scabbard for the M3 Knife, but was also used with the M4 Bayonet, and the M8A1 Scabbard was also used with later M5, M5A1, M6, and M7 Bayonets. I really like the Cunningham book, and would recommend it to others interested in the subject. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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I really thought this subject would attract more participation. Doesn't anyone want to discuss bayonets for M1 Carbines?
David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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Picked up a Utica M4 early on and a Case M3 recently, both for someone else. Don't know much about them but the ones CMP sold were the nicest I've seen. Still in grease and in most cases perfect. Found.a site that discussses them in detail here:
http://www.quanonline.com/military/military_reference/fighting_knives/m4history.php |
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RedSpecial
On Point Joined: Apr 03 2016 Location: PBC, FL Status: Offline Points: 124 |
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David,
I also have one those wood handled bayonets. I'll have to look to see which it is. I believe it's a Utica, but am not 100% sure off the top of my head. I read in some book that it could've been done by the Marines on Okinawa. I believe I read that in Gary Cunnigham's book. I can check tomorrow for you. https://www.amazon.com/KNIFE-BAYONETS-SCABBARDS-Collectors-Cunningham/dp/1888722215 |
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-Neil
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RedSpecial
On Point Joined: Apr 03 2016 Location: PBC, FL Status: Offline Points: 124 |
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I checked my book and it says something to the effect that the exact origin is not known of these variations but it is believed that the leather handles were removed and replaced with the wood sometime between World War II and Korea and could be from Okinawa or the Philippines. It says that there has recently been examples of these bayonets showing up in M8A1 scabbards with US packaging on it, but it is unknown if this is the original packaging or not. This can be found in page 88 of the above mentioned book. I checked my bayonet and it is actually a camillus. |
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-Neil
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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That's a good online resource. Thanks for the link. How much did you have to give for the 2 bayonets you bought recently? David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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RedSpecial, The wood certainly appears to be an Asian hardwood, similar to rubberwood. The Okinawa and Philippines origin conjecture is based on areas where we maintained a presence after the war, so it's probably accurate, though so far unsubstantiated. If I were to guess, I would think that a contract was made with a local supplier to replace the handles locally, which resulted in the surviving examples we both have today. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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The M4, a couple of years ago. M3, relatively recent. IIRC, both were in the $300 range. Was told that's a good price based on their condition but what do I know. Didn't keep either of them very long. Don't see many M3's compared to M4's. Have an appreciation for them as a separate complete item more than I did when I first started.
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RedSpecial
On Point Joined: Apr 03 2016 Location: PBC, FL Status: Offline Points: 124 |
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Don't know if you guys know of this online source as well but tons of knowledge on it:
http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/bayonet_points.htm And the index of that page has tons of information about regular fighting knives. David, I'm over on machinegunboards as well, but go by Kilroy over there. |
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-Neil
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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RedSoecial,
Good to know that you're on Machinegunboards.com. I've enjoyed your posts in the Firearm Photography Forum there, and your interactions with my brother Andy and me. Thanks for the additional link. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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RedSpecial
On Point Joined: Apr 03 2016 Location: PBC, FL Status: Offline Points: 124 |
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David, here's my wood handle bayonet.
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-Neil
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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Neil,
Your M4 bayonet looks like it's in a little bit better shape than mine. Thanks for posting the photo. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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SeoulFood
On Point Joined: Feb 14 2016 Location: Korea Status: Offline Points: 67 |
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Well, since we are talking bayonets, I think I should share this as I found it quite interesting: I'm usually against "restoring" pieces of history, but in this case I think it turned out pretty well and I'm planning to try it on a cracked m8a1 scabbard I have back home.
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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SeoulFood,
That's very well done. It would be relatively easy to spot, in my opinion, based on the texture of the fabric present underneath the rest of the sheath. The paint job could also give it away. I think it's an expedient, well done repair. I think the only issue would be if it were represented as unrepaired at a later date. It would need to be called out during a sale, in my opinion. This type of thing is not specifically referenced in the club honesty policy, as it addresses guns and parts, and doesn't specifically mention accessories, though I would suggest the same disclosure in any sales transaction. I think it's a great way to fix a broken scabbard. Thanks for posting! David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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NewScotlander
Grunt Advanced Collector Joined: Jan 02 2016 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 682 |
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Probably the best book currently available for M3 and M4s. A bit pricey though.
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