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1st one (Teflon Universal)

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cameleon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote cameleon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 1st one (Teflon Universal)
    Posted: Jun 09 2016 at 9:16pm
Been wanting a m1 carbine for a looong time. A little to pricey though. Knew I'd have to settle for a Plainfield or Universal. Finally got a Universal. Ser139xxx with a Teflon olive finish. Figure from the early 70's. Still has the GI bolt. They went to the new bolt in the mid 70's. Hope the pics came out.







Edited by New2brass - Dec 02 2020 at 12:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 10 2016 at 10:28am
Very cool. I've never actually seen (that I remember) one of the Universal teflon coated M1 Carbines such as were featured in the catalog I posted about in another thread. (Link below)

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/universal-teflon-coated-m1-carbine-in-6970-catlg_topic1220.html#6383

I also have a copy of a March 1969 Guns Magazine article on these rifles. An olive one like yours was featured on the cover. (Not the exact same one you have, though...)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cameleon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 10 2016 at 4:53pm
I always liked the military look somewhat better.  Before I got this one I figured I could get a sporter looking one then stain the stock that cherry looking military style. Buy a metal vented hand guard or even drill vent holes in the wooden one and paint it black. But since I got this Teflon set up I think I leave in it's original state. It's kinda unique.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 10 2016 at 5:40pm
Yes, it's certainly unique. Not your typical Carbine. Some folks may dismiss it because it's not military, but I think it's a fun, niche, Commercial Carbine variation. They certainly don't make them like that anymore.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cameleon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 10 2016 at 6:48pm
It's in amazingly great shape for about 45 years. The guy I got it from traded ammo for it. I think he maybe the only one that put a few rounds thru it.  I disassembled it including the bolt (that was a pain) and it shows hardly any wear. The stock below the gas piston had hardly any carbon on it.  By the way I see someone consolidated my pics into my thread. Can I delete the old pics without deleting my thread? You always point your computer in a safe direction before hitting delete. LOL.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cameleon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 10 2016 at 8:31pm
By the way Dave is there a way you cold post a pic of that magazine cover of the 69 Guns Mag?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cameleon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 10 2016 at 8:37pm
By the way a big thanks to New2Brass. He fixed up my pics and got them into my thread. I just got into posting pics about a year ago. My daughter gave me A Nikon Coolpix s210 camera she was not using anymore. I learned the rest from tips and help from people like New2Brass. But it took awhile. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 12 2016 at 11:31am
cameleon,

Here is the cover shot...



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cameleon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 12 2016 at 6:29pm
Thanks Dave. It does look exactly like mine. Considering the condition and unique finish what do you think it's value is? The guy wanted 350. I traded the equivalent for it. Just curious.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 12 2016 at 10:47pm
I would think it's worth more than that, maybe $500 to $600.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cameleon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 13 2016 at 8:19am
Originally posted by David Albert David Albert wrote:

I would think it's worth more than that, maybe $500 to $600.

David

Wow! That's great. I don't usually luck out like that. Usually I pay what a firearm is worth. Maybe a little more or a little less. Or trade up or down a little.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cameleon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 13 2016 at 8:31am
I have a mechanical question. I understand that there could be an out of battery fire with the Universal. Like other rifles. My rear receiver bridge is the type that is cut wrong. I read where there is a second back up safety that relates to the hammer face/bolt tang set up (GI bolt). How does that work? Maybe a pic of the relationship? Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crashtestnewbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 13 2016 at 8:49am
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/bolts.html
it looks like there were  a few items to increase safety. Its a good read. Some improvements helped reduce muzzle flash.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cameleon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 13 2016 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by crashtestnewbie crashtestnewbie wrote:

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/bolts.html
it looks like there were  a few items to increase safety. Its a good read. Some improvements helped reduce muzzle flash.

Yes, a good read indeed. I see the relationship of the rear of the bolt to hammer face to prevent firing until bolt is locked. A pic IS worth a thousand words. LOL.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 13 2016 at 6:30pm
http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_universal.html
 
4 pages on the Universal Carbine. Might find answers there as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 16 2016 at 1:01am
The teflon coated carbines sold by Universal were marketed as submersible and "rust proof". Not the first time the guy who handled their marketing exaggerated or did false advertising. Fortunately he did only marketing, not operations.

The problem this marketing created was owners believed it. As a result, many went uncleaned and/or unoiled after exposure to the elements. The carbines rusted in the various areas not teflon coated and along the edges on the barrel and receiver.

Green seems to have been the most common color. I've seen more green ones than all of the other colors offered combined.

Your GI bolt was not the one used by Universal during that time. Likely someone replaced the Universal bolt with the GI one. I'll address the Universal bolts in another post.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 16 2016 at 1:20am
Does anyone here have any of the other colors? In the 1969 article, I see white, tan, aqua, green, and bluish-black as available options.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 16 2016 at 2:56am
There have been plenty of stories and opinions on the carbines made by Universal Firearms. Many of them negative. When I started researching Universal and their carbines I looked for the issues I'd read in many of these stories and opinions. In this post I'll stick to the issue of their redesigned bolt and claims it was/is unsafe.



The design of the rear of the GI bolt and face of the hammer were designed to prevent the hammer from contacting the firing pin (A) until the bolt rotated into the locked position and was ready for firing (B). The rear of the bolt and face of the hammer were hardened to operate as a matched set.



The purpose of the tang on the rear of all GI firing pins is to engage a cut in the rear of the receiver bridge that held the firing pin back until the bolt was fully rotated and locked. Along with the design of the rear of the bolt and face of the hammer this was intended to prevent out-of-battery discharges.

Additional info is available on the web page devoted to GI bolts and firing pins on this website.

A few early Universal's were built using GI bolts but not many. The bolt Universal used was a round bolt machined from a forged steel billet to GI specifications. With the exception of some having a quasi lightening cut we see on the GI flat bolts.

Universal switched production of their carbines at s/n 100,000. Those with a s/n about 100k feature the redesigned hybrid Universal took out a patent on. This redesign did not initially include a means by which to hold the bolt open. Meaning it was absent the previously used slide stop and slide stop spring.

I have info Universal switched to a cast bolt for a short period of time about 1970 but I have yet to see one. They continued to use their bolt based on the GI design after the other changes at s/n 100k.

About s/n 185000 Universal introduced a lever on the right side of the receiver that could be used to hold the bolt open and lock the slide in the rear position. To accomplish this the lever engaged a notch added in the side of the bolt at the rear. This bolt included several additional changes that departed from the GI design. Carbines with the lever to hold the bolt open cannot use a bolt of the GI design.


Right: GI style bolt used by Universal until about s/n 185k. Left: The redesigned bolt with the notch the lever engaged to hold the bolt open.

One of the most obvious changes was the elimination of the tang on the rear of the firing pin. This is often cited as "elimination of one of the safety features of the GI design" with a conclusion it is therefore unsafe. It did eliminate a safety feature but they replaced it with a different design commonly used on many other firearms.


This bolt retained the design of the rear of the bolt and face of the hammer to prevent the hammer from striking the firing pin until the bolt was fully rotated and locked. To hold the firing pin within the rear of the bolt and away from the primer they added a strong tension spring inside the front of the bolt.

Opinions can differ on which is safer, the firing pin tang or the tension spring. Keep in mind the design of the GI carbine was for a very different environment than the civilian market. Many other commercial firearms use the retention spring.

Add to this equation, one of the things that has been common with commercially manufactured receivers is an improper cut in the rear of the receiver bridge affecting the degree to which it held the firing pin tang way from the primer. The tension spring eliminated this problem.

One last thing that applies to all commercial bolts, Universal included. GI specs for hardening of the bolt hardened the rear of the bolt to a greater degree than the front of the bolt. I have yet to find a commercial bolt that meets these standards. They are hardened the same front and rear. The drawback with this is it diminishes the lifespan of the safety design at the rear of the bolt by metal deformation from repeated hammer strikes. All commercial bolts should be monitored for this damage on a regular basis.

I often get asked if a particular commercial manufacturer made good carbines or problem carbines. My answer is, a used gun is a used gun regardless of who made it, and what it was when they made it. Get it checked by a competent gunsmith before you shoot it. Especially semi-auto centerfire rifles designed for the military.

Jim

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 16 2016 at 3:04am
I have Universal Firearms catalogs for 1963, 1964, 1967, 1969-70, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1976, 1981, 1982 and 1984. The only one that mentions the teflon coating option is the 1969-1970 catalog.

Each color had a separate model number.

Model 1020: Camouflage Olive
Model 1021: Leaf Green
Model 1022: Azure Blue
Model 1023: Desert Tan
Model 1024: Raven Black

I also have the March 1969 issue of Guns Magazine. On page 60 it lists the colors as:

Olive Green
Black
Blue
Tan
White


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 16 2016 at 9:17am
Jim,

Thanks for the specifics on the teflon colors. I'm away from my paper items at the moment, and also have the 1969-70 catalog you mentioned in my own collection. I've never seen all the Universal catalogs you have in your collection together in one photo...Any chance you could take a photo of them to post here? For those who don't know me, I'm a bit of a firearm paper item nerd, and co-authored the first collector guide on the subject in 2005. (It was specific to the Thompson Submachine Gun) I also wrote a CCNL article on M1 Carbine paper items a few years back. Anyway, my interest in firearm paper items includes just about anything on paper that is firearm related.

Thanks!

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