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Club Honesty Policy and Forum Rules

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Lupus Dei View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Lupus Dei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Club Honesty Policy and Forum Rules
    Posted: Dec 18 2015 at 1:26pm
By using these Forums you agree to that which is posted below. You also acknowledged this when you clicked "yes" to "I agree to the Forum Rules and Policies" in order to sign in.

Carbine Club Honesty Policy

With the increase in volume of reproduction/fake parts, bogus stock-stamping dies, etc., the Carbine Club needs to state an honesty policy to protect the quality and accuracy of its data, and to preserve its history of serious research and accurate, objective, and unbiased reporting of the carbine's production.

If a person wants to restore a gun to its original configuration, refinish the metal or wood, fill in rear sight staking marks, re-stamp a stock, or use reproduction parts, that is his private business as long as that gun is for his own collection. It is dishonest to later sell or trade such a gun, without full disclosure of all the restoration that was done. Likewise, it is dishonest to sell fake or reproduction parts without disclosing that they are not original.

The Carbine Club's policy on honesty is as follows: A data sheet on a restored carbine will state that it has been restored. Carbines will be accurately and completely described by the seller as to condition, with details of any restoration. Reproduction or non-original parts and accessories will be described as such. The seller of a carbine, parts, or accessories will offer inspection and return privileges.

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It is the Clubs goal that the Carbine Collectors Club Forum to set the Bar for Carbine Collecting. It is a site that is friendly and open to the novice and advanced collector alike.

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David Albert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 27 2015 at 4:15pm
I need to take this opportunity to further expand upon the honesty policy, and discussion of reproduction/fake parts. This has been a quest of mine for some time. I believe the club should take a slightly firmer stance, although I admit the Carbine Club has no way to substantially enforce it. The best thing is to fully document reproductions, and encourage marking of reproduction items as such. My main issue is with tolerance of restoration of Carbines with fake parts and modifications made "for his own collection." At some point, an innocent widow will end up introducing the personally modified Carbine to other collectors at face value, which will appear to be original, if the parts are not marked appropriately. We are probably too far down this road already, but I make every effort to stem the tide.

In 2010, I did a lecture on the subject at the annual meeting of The American Thompson Association, and our association adopted a Reproduction Item Standard into our bylaws, which includes marking of new reproduction items.

A pdf download link to the Thompson Reproduction Item lecture is included below:

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/TATA/2010/Repro%20Lecture%202010.pdf

Here is the text of the reproduction item policy we adopted for The American Thompson Association:

The American Thompson Association (TATA) Reproduction Thompson Item Standard

The American Thompson Association is a group of collectors dedicated to preserving the history, collecting, and promoting the safe operation of legal Thompson Submachine Guns. The club has a responsibility to future collectors, and recognizes that many artifacts and accessories associated with the Thompson are reproduced, or have been reproduced in the past. As a result, TATA assumes a stewardship role for future collectors, who, upon encountering reproduction items now and in the future, may not be able to reasonably determine their originality. This can have the effect of reducing collector value of original specimens, as well as present unintended (or intended) ethical issues among the Thompson collector community.
The American Thompson Association adopts a standard consisting of marking any new Thompson Submachine Gun reproduction items with a name or other distinguishable identifying mark that indicate the manufacturing entity, and at least the year of manufacture. The marking should be easily visible, and made in a manner that the item can be readily identifiable as a reproduction, such as die stamping in metal, firmly stamped wood markings, readily accessible publisher marks inside the front page of a paper item, permanently painted markings on canvas material, or other reasonable and permanent marking method. (An example for stock markings is to mark such items under the buttplate, and on top of the grip, as these are already standard methods, and will not detract cosmetically from their presentation on a Thompson.)

TATA members must comply to the standard, and any reproduction item made by a member after notification of the adoption of the new standard in the club newsletter should be marked according to the TATA reproduction marking standard. (Failure to do so could effect membership status)

Method of Introduction for Acceptance:

Items may be presented to the TATA Board by members or non-members (via live sample, or high resolution (300dpi or better) photo or scan that details the product effectively) for inclusion on an online list that details them for public access. (This list currently resides in a pinned post at the top of the Thompson board at Machinegunboards.com) Items are presented to the TATA Board via e-mail to the TATA President or Vice President, who will convene the board online via e-mail or telephone within 60 days of receipt of a request for inclusion. A list consisting of 3 categories of Thompson reproduction items will be maintained:

A. New reproduction Thompson items that conform to TATA marking standard, to include known manufacturer information.
B. Existing reproduction items that conform to TATA marking standard, to include known manufacturer information.
C. Reproduction Thompson items that do not conform to TATA marking standard, to include known manufacturer information.

At a later time to be determined, once greater experience has been gained with managing a marking standard, TATA will present their standard to the NRA as a potential best practice. The standard may also be introduced to other NRA affiliated collector organizations who might want to adopt a similar standard. (End of standard)


Thanks!

David Albert
NRA Life Member
Past President, The American Thompson Association
American Society of Arms Collectors
OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA
Contributing Writer, Small Arms Review Magazine
Eagle Scout, NESA
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tenOCEE View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 01 2016 at 9:08am
To add to the discussion, it would be a good will directive to reiterate that the Carbine Club has a policy of acceptance of legitimate restoration or correcting of Carbines which are declared as being just what they are. The practice is probably the most popular avenue of Carbine activity today. Every enthusiast is learning from the discussions surrounding the practice. People engaged in that activity are what is driving the most interest and rediscovery of the history of this rifle. Sharing rifle history and parts usage by the makers as well as determining legitimacy of complete rifles and parts is driving a major portion of the hobby in education, buying/selling and sharing of history. There should be no tolerance of attacks by members who are expressing their personal pet peeve against such. One of my favorite rifles was purchased with the wrong stock and missing a barrel band. It's an example anyone would be proud to own now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NewScotlander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 10 2016 at 10:07am
It's going to be very difficult to eliminate people trying to pass off restored carbines as originals or the use of fake/reproduction parts. The best way to avoid being "taken", is to be informed and educated about what is fake and what is original.

In the past I have both purchased fake parts and restored carbines which I thought were original. Both happened early in my collecting days. I have made it a point to see as many original carbines as possible to know what is correct. Education is the key.
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tenOCEE View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 10 2016 at 11:03am
We here should have the security of transacting with people who have also agreed to the forum rules, so unless someone has specific info they're willing to make public to the contrary about a person then we can be assured everyone here is engaged in honorable activity with another member. If a person is not behaving honorably, we should support those who expose dishonest activity and not make personal attacks based on relationships, pet peeves or emotions. Honor and decorum.

Quote The Carbine Club's policy on honesty is as follows: A data sheet on a restored carbine will state that it has been restored. Carbines will be accurately and completely described by the seller as to condition, with details of any restoration. Reproduction or non-original parts and accessories will be described as such. The seller of a carbine, parts, or accessories will offer inspection and return privileges.


Perhaps we can ask if a data sheet has been tallied on a Carbine we're buying as to how the seller is willing to represent it? No sheet means no pedigree/claims (IOWs,buy the gun not the story).
The Carbine Club acknowledges that everybody does not have the same goals in this hobby. I find that purists are the least agreeable people in hobbies. If I find/acquire an original, it's a bonus and a treasure. But finding value in real parts and gaining the education about them has been my primary activity. When I 'started', my goal was only to acquire an M2. Didn't care about anything else Carbine related. Just wanted a round bolt and late parts in favor of the earlier stuff. Now I value the earlier parts too.
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Scott C. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scott C. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 10 2016 at 12:56pm
I too, early in my collecting, have bought fake parts and restored carbines, thinking everything was right and original!! Often times the seller may have not of known? But, other times, the seller was very well aware of what he was selling. So, like Chris, I make it a point to look at every original carbine that I come across. That and help from others with a more experienced eye, is really the only way to protect yourself from the fraudulent sellers. Even with that, you can still be mistaken at times.
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