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Difference between factory ammo and my own reloads

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Liberium View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Liberium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Difference between factory ammo and my own reloads
    Posted: Aug 02 2022 at 2:35am
When I use factory ammo the sights are perfect, when I use my own reloads the p.o.i. (on 25 yards) has moved one inch to the left and one inch lower.

could never figure out why, all brass is sized, went thru a tumbler with crushed wallnut so looks nice, same powderload as a friend of mine and so on.

Measured all the different brands of factory ammo that I had and everything was about the same with my reloads.

could not find the problem, untill naah could it be ?

yesterday I took a bronze brush that I use for cleaning the barrel put it in a drill and cleaned the inside of the neck of each casing, shot 25 rounds and they were perfect, the dust from the crushed wallnut was causing the problem, it caused extra friction between the neck and bullit.

Those litle things realy make a big difference
1944 national postal meter .30M1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timothy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 04 2022 at 1:32am
Liberium
The mechanical engineer in me does not make me a statistical expert, but I’ve had a class or two and have some 40 years of experience of making things, putting them together and taking them apart. My thoughts on your hypothesis: I can accept a dirty case mouth may influence POI variance, but why only to the left and below? Presumably your reloaded round is loaded into the magazine (and thus the chamber) rather randomly with respect to how it was oriented on your loading press. Would not the variance be plus or minus an inch in random angles?
Respectfully
Tim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Liberium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 04 2022 at 4:13am
Well my thoughts are that with the wallnut dust between neck and bullit there is more friction, the dust is coated all around the inside fo the neck therefore it builds up more pressure(or could it be less pressure if it has less friction because of the wallnut powder) every single reload, and therefore it has the same shift of poi every time.

never would I have thought that a bit of wallnut dust would have that kind of difference in poi, friends of mine who also shoot .30m1 car. were amazed that this was the problem, in a competition I could only use factory ammo, and these days they are getting pretty expensive, now I can use my own reloads for competition.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thirtyround Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 08 2022 at 6:47pm
    Never reloaded for the 30 Carbine, Wished I had. Allow me to Yap a bit...
Over the many years, I've shot many a 30 Carbine round ,basically every manufacturer too. Back in the day I exclusively shot Winchester white box as it was plentiful and absurdly cheap as compared to today (6 bucks a box retail, 1984 in California). 30 Carbine remained relatively cheap up until late 90's or so.
    I doped all my GI rifles with this ammo with excellent groups to 50/100/150/200. Basically my standard was 4" round target on man silhouette at 50 & 100Y and 6" at 150 & 200Y. In the prone all rounds in the black. (and these guns were Blue Sky import Inlands) If I had a rifle back then that couldn't perform to this, I sold it.
     As to be expected - When shooting many other high quality US brands of ammo (110 grn FMJ), with the same set dope, each shot their own patterns just as tight but off POA by 4" - 6 " or some patterned very open, as much as a foot+ at 100y. There most definitely will be variables.
    Haven't shot like that in the last 10 years however, so I would imagine the factory 24/7 mass produced ammo is doing the same, worse or much worse. Yap Over. JB    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Liberium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 09 2022 at 3:16am
These days over here S&B goes for 40 euro for a box of 50 rounds, thats about $45 a box of 50, so reloading is way cheaper if you can get the parts, primers and bullits are getting to be a problem now and I doubt they use .30M1 carbine in the Ukrain war but they use that just as an excuse to drive up the price.

Hoping that when the third primer factory in the US is build there will be more primers and the price goes down.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 09 2022 at 5:09am
Not likely 30-carbine ammo is being introduced on any current battlefield, but you can enjoy a carbine just as much with a caliber-conversion to something that is more plentiful and just as reloadable….and you won’t modify or destroy the integrity of a 100% USGI carbine in the process. You can pay for the conversion pretty quickly with 7.62 x 33 at $1.00 a round, if you can find it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thirtyround Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 09 2022 at 5:10pm
Can you provide any details on this "conversion" I'm assuming its a chamber insert to utilize 7.62 x 25. what are any other mod'd? Sounds interesting. Unfortunately it will not be cheaper to shoot however.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 09 2022 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by thirtyround thirtyround wrote:

Can you provide any details on this "conversion" I'm assuming its a chamber insert to utilize 7.62 x 25. what are any other mod'd? Sounds interesting. Unfortunately it will not be cheaper to shoot however.

I will PM you. The discussion can get lengthy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Liberium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 10 2022 at 2:19am
to me, I would not butcher a historic weapon to shoot 7,62, and since $50 a box for 7,62 is more expensive than $45 a box for .30M1.....

I can not see why anyone would want to do that unless the .30M1 has been used for firing teargass and the chamber is already screwed up by that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 10 2022 at 6:24am
No butchering involved, I would not stand for that either. Shot out GI barrels are re-bored and chambered for 9mm, a used or import marked 30-caliber barrel can be re-chambered for TOK and a commercial bolt can be used. That’s all there is to it, everything else 100% USGI. If one can’t obtain 9mm or TOK either, I agree it’s not worth the effort other than for a fun and interesting project.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thirtyround Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 10 2022 at 8:06pm
Sir, sounds very interesting, and unique. shooting 9mm in my opinion, because of cost would be better to go with.   Would love to shoot one, even better to have one. Not in the cards Im afraid at the current time frame. Parts are getting absurd to buy. I thank you sincerely for the info, Cheers, JB
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Liberium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 11 2022 at 2:51am
one in 9mm would be interesting then you can use the same ammo in your pistol and carbine, if it's done with a warn out 30M1 that would be a way to at least keep them in working condition and 9mm ammo is a lot cheaper than .30M1.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 11 2022 at 5:02am
9mm barrels are available for less than the usual cost of a good 30-caliber barrel, much less. These are reclaimed USGI barrels and the ones I have handled were Inland. 9mm bolts are available for about the cost of a good used USGI bolt. That’s all that’s required. Everything else is USGI spec. The barrel is installed and head spaced like any other carbine barrel installation. Some tuning is required and I don’t want to over simplify the build, but no serviceable USGI component is modified or destroyed in the process.

9mm is much cheaper than 7.62 x 33 and at pistol ranges, will do about anything a 30-carbine will do.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Milisock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 11 2022 at 9:44am
Out of a Carbine barrel a 9MM will get you European 357 Sig velocities. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 11 2022 at 10:30am
I beg the OP’s indulgence for allowing the drifting of his thread, but if the conversation is interesting, we can enjoy the discussion.

The actual 357SIG ballistics escape me at the moment, but I have chrono’d quite a bit of 9mm in various projectile weights and strengths. From the 18-inch carbine barrel 9mm velocities increase an average of 18% over published pistol length barrel velocities, from 15% to 20%. Winchester 115-grain Service Grade publishes a mv of 1300fps. This chrono’s at +-1500 from the carbine barrel. S&B SB9A with published velocities of 1280 nets a similar result of close to 1500fps.

The carbine barrel might be a tad too long. 16-inch barrels are reported to be a more perfect length for the 9mm carbines.

The Iver Johnson version of a 9mm carbine was manufactured with a 16-inch barrel. 

I can say that I have tested some seriously hot hand loads. The carbine chamber completely supports the brass and the risk of case ruptures is reduced…..never have seen any evidence of a bulge or split case. I pushed 146-grain 350 Legend projectiles to over 1500fps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 11 2022 at 10:54am
Edit….I misspoke on the 350 Legend loads. I have loaded those to 1310fps. 1500 might be pushing chamber pressures a bit. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Milisock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 12 2022 at 9:39am
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

I beg the OP’s indulgence for allowing the drifting of his thread, but if the conversation is interesting, we can enjoy the discussion.

The actual 357SIG ballistics escape me at the moment, but I have chrono’d quite a bit of 9mm in various projectile weights and strengths. From the 18-inch carbine barrel 9mm velocities increase an average of 18% over published pistol length barrel velocities, from 15% to 20%. Winchester 115-grain Service Grade publishes a mv of 1300fps. This chrono’s at +-1500 from the carbine barrel. S&B SB9A with published velocities of 1280 nets a similar result of close to 1500fps.

The carbine barrel might be a tad too long. 16-inch barrels are reported to be a more perfect length for the 9mm carbines.

The Iver Johnson version of a 9mm carbine was manufactured with a 16-inch barrel. 

I can say that I have tested some seriously hot hand loads. The carbine chamber completely supports the brass and the risk of case ruptures is reduced…..never have seen any evidence of a bulge or split case. I pushed 146-grain 350 Legend projectiles to over 1500fps.

As a 357 Sig shooter and reloader I can attest that it and the 10MM suffer from weak loads in the U.S.. European loading of the 357 Sig is to 44,000 PSI, U.S. loads are 40,000 PSI. European 125 grain HP loads clock 1475 FPS out of my Glock 31, U.S. loads a tad over 1,300, hardly worth it compared to true 9MM+P.

There are a few schools of thought on defensive handgun 9MM loadings, +P ratings mean little, clock your ammo, Hornady Critical Defence +P is barely +P in terms of velocity but it uses a very good reliable expanding softer projectile limiting over penetration. This, is in my opinion the home defense concept, done well.

Then there is the other direction, I believe Corebond was the brand, it has reliable expanding projectiles but pushes 125 to 175 FPS faster than Hornady. This is a tactical concept, (I've prescribed to this concept before it became available to purchase calling it an energy dump) it does not penetrate armor but provides significant soft tissue damage against soft armor due to a high amount of energy. A bit more to handle shooting but not bad.

The 9MM PCC (pistol caliber carbine) in my opinion is best if limited to a 16" barrel. However an additional 2 inches is not going to drop your velocities significantly.  Hornady Critical Defense in 16" barrels gets a bit above U.S. loadings of 357 Sig and true 9Mm+P 124 grain gets to European 357 Sig velocities occasionally clocking at 1,500 FPS.

I shoot European loads in my 357 Sig and they're snappy but nothing like my 45 Super loads. I do not have any PCC's, I have a 357 Sig handgun with European loads and fully functional rebuilt 30 Carbines. If I were to buy one it would be a 10.5" barrel in 5.7 FN.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 12 2022 at 10:43am
The 30-carbine is a great little gun as-is and I have a few. We all have our particular little quirks and one of mine is ammo availability. If I can’t readily find a source for what I am shooting, all I have is a club. The carbine is a perfect platform for converting to other calibers and 9mm can be found under about any bush (even in the current environment) still at less than half the cost of 30-carbine. The 9mm is on the bottom end of what the carbine will cycle, but it affords the ability to load-up to a level of +p+ and even beyond that. I am firmly in the camp of not destroying an heirloom and my conversions don’t. I agree with David that it seems US loadings generally are under-powered when compared to European loadings in some calibers. Some real crazy warm loads have been developed for the 9mm, just need to have a gun strong enough to handle it. The carbine can handle it handily. I have considered a 357 SIG conversion, but the 9 can be loaded or purchased off the shelf hot-enough to suit my needs….for now.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Milisock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 12 2022 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

The 30-carbine is a great little gun as-is and I have a few. We all have our particular little quirks and one of mine is ammo availability. If I can’t readily find a source for what I am shooting, all I have is a club. The carbine is a perfect platform for converting to other calibers and 9mm can be found under about any bush (even in the current environment) still at less than half the cost of 30-carbine. The 9mm is on the bottom end of what the carbine will cycle, but it affords the ability to load-up to a level of +p+ and even beyond that. I am firmly in the camp of not destroying an heirloom and my conversions don’t. I agree with David that it seems US loadings generally are under-powered when compared to European loadings in some calibers. Some real crazy warm loads have been developed for the 9mm, just need to have a gun strong enough to handle it. The carbine can handle it handily. I have considered a 357 SIG conversion, but the 9 can be loaded or purchased off the shelf hot-enough to suit my needs….for now.





I agree on both points, hot (not out of SAAMI hot) but real 1908 loads for the 9MM will do nicely in a 30 Carbine with a standard recoil spring.

The 30 Carbine is why I don't have any pistol caliber carbines. I have a Quality Hardware and an Inland in an M1A1 stock that have been given the works, spring kit, extra power recoil spring, M2 magazine latches, new complete late style flat bolts, (all new parts) and they function like late war brand new rifles. 

I can not believe the difference in the way a 30 Carbine feels, sounds and shoots when having all the movable parts brought into tight spec.
David Milisock
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