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FEATURED CARBINE: Irwin Pedersen 1775265

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (6) Thanks(6)   Quote Newsman1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: FEATURED CARBINE: Irwin Pedersen 1775265
    Posted: Oct 02 2016 at 12:36am
September 2016 G

Irwin Pedersen Serial Number 1775265

This rifle belonged to Bennie Huffman of Luray Va., a catcher for the St. Louis Browns baseball team  in 1937 and a WWII Navy veteran.


Few players in the years before World War II started their professional baseball careers in the major leagues, but "Bennie" Huffman broke into the Big Show in 1937 with the St. Louis Browns. If it had not been for a serious shoulder injury that summer as well as the later onset of World War II, Huffman probably would have enjoyed a longer major league career. Without a day of minor league experience, the left-handed batting catcher hit .273 with the Browns in his only American League season. In 1939 Huffman was farmed out to San Antonio of the Texas League where his shoulder got better and he won the clubs MVP award for 1941.

He was all set to go back to the Browns as the first-string catcher  Instead, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941. In January 1942, Huffman enlisted on a bigger team, the U.S. Navy, and he spent four years in the service during World War II. Bennie, whose job was to teach seamanship, also played ball for Navy teams at several bases, including the Norfolk Naval Training Station.

After serving stateside, Bennie received his orders for Saipan and became a member of the Third Fleet US Navy baseball.  The armed forces fielded service teams that traveled to various theaters including the Pacific Tour of 1945.

His orders are shown below:


Also noted in the following transfer order are other baseball players including William Barney McCosky, Vincent Ambrose Smith, Thomas Jerome Ferrick, John Dungan Rigney, Albert Brancato and Merrill “Pinky” May.


In service ball he played alongside major league sailors such as Dom DiMaggio, Bob Feller, Pee Wee Reese, Johnny Mize, and Johnny Vander Meer. Bennie's service history during WW2 is shown in the picture below:


After his service in WW2, Huffman played and managed in the minor leagues for four seasons. In 1952 he became a scout for the White Sox and did so for the next 32 years.

In 1999, this rifle was sold to its second owner. That person’s name is written on a paper insert inside the handguard (see below). IIn 2011, it was loaned to be a part of the NRA museum. The placard is shown below. The text gives a brief history of the M1 carbine, Irwin Pedersen and a picture of the display.  There is another picture on the NRA Facebook page in a display setting for those interested.  Recommended readings are all IP related newsletters, especially CCNL 374 IP Marked Carbines by Chris Albright.





CCNL 70 states that when Saginaw took over the Irwin Pedersen contract carbines were processed in 3 "batches".  This featured carbine is a "1st batch" as it falls between serial numbers 1,762,--- and 1,785,--- and it has all Irwin Pedersen parts.  This IP has the expected matte black oxide finish. The receiver serial number is of type IP2 as the 7's do not have a serif (CCNL 374-2). The finish can be seen on various parts in this article. The manila NRA tag is also shown.



The I-cut stock is marked S’G’ with the expected cartouche (below top left). The I-cut is not recessed and bares a distinctive stamped letter A inside the stock (below bottom left). The sling well is marked IR-IP with an ordnance bomb (below top right). The inside of the stock shows the machining marks consistent with early Pederson stocks (below bottom right).


 


A close up of the wrist (marked with a P inside a circle), cartouche and stock nose.



The handguard is marked IR-IP with an ordnance bomb. The yellowish color shown below is a piece of paper that reveals the handwritten name and SSN of the previous owner. The oiler is marked ISP.




Typical marks included on the rear receiver flat are the pine needle, house or fat man. Is there another mark?  The pine needle mark is shown.  The E279 IP slide is marked with a 2 on the outside.



The trigger housing is marked IP on the right side.  Note the 22 coil hammer spring, the hint of a recessed cut on the trigger, the tooling hole, the wear patterns left by the stock and the M4 marking on the receiver rail.


Here, the magazine catch is marked IP-B and the dogleg hammer is marked IP with hardness test marks.  This writer has also observed an ordnance bomb in the same area as the hardness test marks.

Hardness test marks, Receiver Ring marking U.S CARBINE CAL. .30 MI, Ordnance bomb on barrel flat.


The rear sight is marked RP and S on the other side. The rear sight was staked on one side by bashing it with a blunt instrument. The bottom rear receiver rail is marked M4, but does not have an ordnance bomb marking to the rear of the mill cut. The hardness test mark on the receiver are also shown.  The rear sight leaf is also marked RP.



Close up of the rear sight, dove tail and staking.



The flat bolt is marked IP on the right lug and a 2 is stamped on the underside of the lug.  Note how the lower half of I is missing.







Top view and close up of trigger housing including single hammer strike mark.


IP Barrel Proof Mark

The IP Barrel Proof mark appears to be sideways and it was difficult to get an accurate measurement for the datasheet. If others have serial numbers in this range, please report the orientation of the P mark.



This IP has a 1-43 dated Underwood barrel.  The type 1 barrel band is unmarked and has three weld scars.  The swivel is marked UP for Union Hardware Co. of Torrington Connecticut.



The unmarked butt plate is also shown.  Note the finish that has worn off over time.


Both sides of the front sight are shown including the number 7 stamped on the left side.


  Inside view of barrel, slide and barrel band.



The Carbine Club was started as a small group of collectors and has grown to the standard for carbine information. If you have something to share please let us know, without your submissions we are just another forum.

TS


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kar6666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 02 2016 at 11:08am
Thanks for another very interesting article about IP/S'G' Carbines.Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Car Wash Chris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 02 2016 at 1:29pm
Yes indeed, a very nice example, thanks for all the close ups. I will have to check my bolts on the underneath side, never knew about the 2. Thanks Chris


Question on the lower receiver rail marking I have one that looks just like yours and thought it to be 14 not M4 am I missing something. Great pictures. Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shadycon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 02 2016 at 1:33pm
Very nice! Thank you for sharing! great pictures!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 02 2016 at 6:22pm
Thanks guys.  Documenting is fun, pictures not so much.  Have thought about hiring somebody to do it.

@CWC:  See CCNL 374-3:  The M2 and M4 marking has been reported on right, rear side of the operation spring
housing.  It was discontinued around SN 1777xxx.  Sometimes, the markings is faint and hard to read.

Sometimes the hammer will have an ordinance bomb on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Car Wash Chris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 03 2016 at 7:51pm
Thanks Ted, well aware of the #374 NL, but I can't say for sure I have ever seen one with a definitive M. So I took a couple pictures of 2 of mine. The 1st one with the S'G' TH is a 1,777. the 2nd one with the IP TH is a 1,778.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 03 2016 at 8:46pm
Chris, great pics, The first and second pics are perfect.  The angle shows the marks that can be seen, and the rest of it which is hard to see (apologies as my editing skills aren't all that great).  Think it has something to do with the stamping and the rounded edge on the back of the receiver.



Here's a close up of mine.  Color is off since I'm too cheap to by a good camera (IPad is great for editing but crappy for picture taking, especially close ups..JMO).  Not as easy to see but you can see the "leg" of the emanating from the "I".





Have a pic from a different IP receiver (1777xxx) somewhere and it doesn't have the mark.  Instead it has flaming bomb next to the mill cut.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Car Wash Chris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 03 2016 at 8:58pm
Yes you can see mine or at least the outline, the V in yours is a much thinner font. On my second one the M must have gotten lost around the corner. Best
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 03 2016 at 9:26pm
Wonder if that is why the stamp in that area was discontinued?  Strange place to put a stamp in an area where the metal is curved.  Too few examples in this thread to say for sure, but it looks like an M.  Will go with what the CCNL says since it was data based.  Have seen other examples where the marking is more pronounced.  Bottom of the 4 is also missing on mine. Also, the leg of the M appears to be poorly stamped.  Notice how it looks to be "broken" a little more than half way down.

@CWC, the leg on one of your examples appears the same way.  Interesting....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NewScotlander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 08 2016 at 8:25am
I have seen the M with and without serifs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 09 2016 at 12:48am
Have read about the non serif M's. Any patterns to non serif vs. serif M's or randomly distributed?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 10 2016 at 7:45pm
Think I have a 1.78 with no mark, 1.78 with flaming bomb behind the slide groove and a 1.77 with an M2 in the above pictured locations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 10 2016 at 8:03pm
ten, does the M2 marking on your 1.77 have serif?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote welbytwo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 10 2016 at 8:10pm
very nice IP--is about the 10th original looking IP marked receiver gun with no buttplate marking--anyone have a IP marked receivered gun they feel is original and can document as original with a marked butt plate?????
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 10 2016 at 8:51pm
Originally posted by m1a1fan m1a1fan wrote:

ten, does the M2 marking on your 1.77 have serif?


Yes, it does. Also the 1.788 has the bomb. The 1.783 has no marking. So there's a gap with no marking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 10 2016 at 9:26pm
Have seen a few more original IP's since including one which was all IP and the stock.  None of them had a marked butt plate.  Tried to look up one that was posted here which I think was the all IP, but it appears the pics have been deleted.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 10 2016 at 9:32pm
Originally posted by tenOCEE tenOCEE wrote:

Originally posted by m1a1fan m1a1fan wrote:

ten, does the M2 marking on your 1.77 have serif?


Yes, it does. Also the 1.788 has the bomb. The 1.783 has no marking. So there's a gap with no marking.


Interesting....Have seen 1.777, has bomb, but no M mark.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 11 2016 at 7:57pm
1.77 with M2 and flaming bomb. Can't tell if it's a serif M the way it's stamped.
1.79 no marking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 29 2016 at 9:17pm
Interesting.  Wonder if the later ones like your 1.79 got rid of the M2/M4 marking and the flaming bomb?  Have never seen a 1.79 in person.  Saw a 1.78 oval cut once but don't think it was original and wasn't able to take it apart.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hunterman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 30 2016 at 10:05pm

I posted pics of my original IP but my photobucket files have since crashed. In a separate post are pics of the unmarked butt plate from the rifle.



click here
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