The Carbine Collectors Club

Click on the image above to learn more about the M1 Carbine


Forum Home Forum Home > The Club > Carbines of the Collectors
  New Posts New Posts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login


FAT ROCK-OLA carbine

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
sling00 View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps


Joined: Apr 21 2016
Location: Tennessee
Status: Offline
Points: 941
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: FAT ROCK-OLA carbine
    Posted: Jun 08 2019 at 1:21pm
I purposefully picked up a FAT carbine considering this is another chapter in their history.  Not as expansive and glamorous as the Bavarians/Austrians but a chapter none the less.   I Googled for info with little luck, finding mainly what FAT stood for, FAT isn’t an import mark, and discussions on how ugly the Italian replacement stocks are with most owners replacing them with USGI wood.   I read in CCNL 340, March 2007, a discussion on carbines returned from Italy being prepared for sale by the CMP.  It said the carbines had their bolts removed and many heavy in preservative.  This is a FAT 6.08 Rock-Ola service grade from the CMP in early 2008 which I assume is part of that bunch.   I was told it is as delivered from the CMP and I figured this is most likely as close to “original” FAT configuration as I’ll ever get.  I believe the “originality” is supported by all the metal parts, especially in the “hard to reach areas” still exhibit dried, brownish preservative.   In addition to the FAT w/date stamp on the ugly Italian M2 stock it has the corresponding FAT w/date stamp on the barrel (Undated Rock-Ola MW-1 w/Rock-Ola gas cylinder) in front of the receiver. The carbine is comprised of a Rock-Ola type IV slide, round Rock-Ola bolt, and a Rock-Ola Type I trigger housing with no milled angle between the front lugs.  It has a straight type III HI hammer, 26.5 coil hammer spring, an R.I. trigger with unmarked type III sear, a horseshoe w/M flip safety, and type III MAD mag release.  It has an NN front sight with Type III AI bayo barrel band from expected re-arsenal upgrades.  The rear site is a Type II milled, double stamped with HI and H in a shield as described in CCNL 359.  With all that said, I’ve got a few topics for discussion:  

I suspect there may be something in Vol 2 or 3 of Ruth’s books which I don’t have, so is there any info on the scope of work done on these carbines at Fabbrica d'Armi a Terni?  Did they go through a US armorer/re-arsenal before supplied to Italy? 

As stated, the bolt is a correct round Rock-Ola.  It has an IN firing pin and -U- extractor both of which appear to be relatively new dark blue/black.   Was the CMP taking efforts to match mfgs on bolt replacement or could this be the original bolt with replaced firing pin and extractor from a re-arsenal?

Any thoughts on the type I trigger housing being in this 6.08 carbine? 

Ruth stated the H in a shield type II rear sights were issued on later Rock-Ola’s.  I’ve included two pics for your evaluation if this may be original rear sight?  Also included one pic of the double stamp for your viewing enjoyment.




Back to Top
W5USMC View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: Apr 29 2017
Location: Missouri
Status: Offline
Points: 2949
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2019 at 3:00pm
I believe that the Italian carbines went through a U.S. rebuild prior to them being sent to Italy. Our website says that the U.S. sent 146863 carbines via MAP between 1951-1965. All WB III says is "U.S. MAP delivered 156863 carbines to Italy prior to 1965.
As far as stocks go, I managed to buy 10 Carbines from the CMP when they were selling the Italian returns from 07-09. only 2 of them had ugly stocks, the rest were USGI, only 3 had the FAT stock stamp 2 of which were SA pot bellies (one a beautiful tiger stripe), the other a HI pot belly. In the mix of the rest of the stocks I have a J with a MR rebuild marking and a M-U with an AA rebuild marking.
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member
Back to Top
tenOCEE View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar
Knows rear sights!

Joined: Jan 01 2016
Location: East Tenn
Status: Offline
Points: 1330
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2019 at 3:38pm
I bought a group of 10 CMP Carbines from the original purchaser. Most came with FAT stocks. He had a relative or acquaintance who made some Walnut low wood M1 profile stocks for him and he replaced all the stocks with these. I got the original stocks too, but only a couple could be traced to the Carbines they were on originally.

None of the Carbines were substantially correct. I think one had it's original stock. The serial was stamped into it.  Of course this doesn't address your questions, but perhaps gives insight into FATs received?
Back to Top
W5USMC View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: Apr 29 2017
Location: Missouri
Status: Offline
Points: 2949
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2019 at 6:27pm
Originally posted by sling00 sling00 wrote:

and a Rock-Ola Type I trigger housing with no milled angle between the front lugs.


Wouldn't no angle between the front lugs make it a type II??
Just curious does the TH have the oil hole drilled on the left side at the mag catch?I got a Type I Inland TH with one of mine, unfortunately it has the hole. Also only a couple of mine have the "FAT" stamp on the on the barrel.
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member
Back to Top
painter777 View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar

Joined: Feb 18 2016
Location: Central MI
Status: Offline
Points: 1708
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2019 at 7:18pm
I've seen 2 different barrel stamps on the Italian returns.
The usual stamp with date in it and also some with just a Star.

One member thought this about just the Star stamp:

" It may just be that it means it was worked on at one of the other arsenals and not at FAT or that it was just checked out and checked OK so nothing was done to it."

Sounds very possible to me.
BTW: I have a Type II rear sight with the same over stamp.
BQ explained to me that it was a Sub Contractor to Prime contractor.... Inland in this case.





Enjoy your FAT ROCK !
I grew up in a town called Flat Rock.

Good Weekend All,
Charlie-Painter777
Living Free because of those that serve.....
Back to Top
painter777 View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar

Joined: Feb 18 2016
Location: Central MI
Status: Offline
Points: 1708
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2019 at 9:54pm
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

  

Wouldn't no angle between the front lugs make it a type II??

Agreed Wayne,
 
No front bevel, Rear magwall now wider than Type I, Rear Trigger housing Receiver Lug has same Beveled rear corners as a Type I.
This is what I understand to be a Type II Housing.

Charlie-P777
Living Free because of those that serve.....
Back to Top
New2brass View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

Joined: Nov 29 2015
Location: CT
Status: Offline
Points: 4627
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2019 at 11:47pm
Rockola had narrow wall type 2 THs
Back to Top
painter777 View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar

Joined: Feb 18 2016
Location: Central MI
Status: Offline
Points: 1708
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2019 at 11:51pm
Hi Dan,
When I typed 'Wide' it didn't feel right at the time........ Guess I got busted playing the odds.
Thx and Good Weekend to you.

CH-P777
Living Free because of those that serve.....
Back to Top
sling00 View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps


Joined: Apr 21 2016
Location: Tennessee
Status: Offline
Points: 941
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 09 2019 at 6:31am
Good discussions...As for the TH, I made the Type I call based on narrow mag wall and Riesch (perhaps an error?) statement "Rock-Ola discontinued the angle cut at the front of the housing just prior to manufacturing the Type II Trigger Housings."  Here's a couple pics. Thanks


Back to Top
sling00 View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps


Joined: Apr 21 2016
Location: Tennessee
Status: Offline
Points: 941
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 09 2019 at 7:13am
Originally posted by painter777 painter777 wrote:

I've seen 2 different barrel stamps on the Italian returns.
The usual stamp with date in it and also some with just a Star.
I noticed your stamp is perpendicular to the barrel. This one has a star over FAT over underscored date in-line with the barrel same as the stock stamp.

Back to Top
jackp1028 View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar

Joined: Jan 01 2016
Location: Cloudcroft, NM
Status: Offline
Points: 1273
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 10 2019 at 1:08pm
I have one FAT CMP return carbine. It's an early (1.5M) QHMC with, I believe, all original parts except for the barrel band, rear sight, recoil plate and hammer. Only the barrel is FAT stamped. The original Type 1 RMC stock is untouched. The metal does look to be refinished but I somewhere remember reading that this may have been done while in Italy. The bolt is parkerized and matches the receiver and the Rock-Ola barrel which are a darker grey color. One thing that makes me think that it may have seen some USGI arsenal activity is the oil hole near the mag catch on the trigger housing. I don't know whether or not the Italian arsenal may have been doing this. The fact that, with the few exceptions, all the parts are correct for the SN suggests that the Italian arsenal may have been making an effort to keep the original parts together during any refurbishment that may have done.
JackP
Back to Top
Oldboy53 View Drop Down
On Point
On Point
Avatar

Joined: May 19 2021
Location: Middle TN
Status: Offline
Points: 101
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldboy53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 13 2021 at 8:18pm
    I hope this is not going against proper protocol, jumping on an older post like this. But I recently acquired a late QHMC, s/n 4,795,8XX, that appears to have what could be all correct parts for its production, including a T2 Q-RMC stock (Riesch says it's possibleWink). The barrel (Inland 1-44) and receiver have been refinished and the barrel does have the star, FAT, and a date that I can't make out.
    
    Looking for info on the FAT carbines is what brought me to this thread, and JackP's description of his Rockola is very similar to the condition of mine; dark grey receiver, barrel, and matching bolt. 
    
    I've looked for more info on the Italian arsenal and their procedures, but I'm coming up short. Any references or other club members with similar circumstances would be appreciated. Lou. 
GSMC(SW),USN
2/77-11/89
Back to Top
W5USMC View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: Apr 29 2017
Location: Missouri
Status: Offline
Points: 2949
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 13 2021 at 8:44pm
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member
Back to Top
Oldboy53 View Drop Down
On Point
On Point
Avatar

Joined: May 19 2021
Location: Middle TN
Status: Offline
Points: 101
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldboy53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 13 2021 at 9:44pm
    Yes sir, I have. I did check CMP records on their site, and they did not show this s/n. I know, since I have no info on the history of this carbine, that at one time it could have been a mixmaster that someone since has bubba'd back to being nearly correct (staking for a T2/3 rear sight is evident). 

    There are no import markings, so, do I understand correctly, that it must have come back home before the GCA? The dark parkerizing has little wear, and all seems to be uniform, as JackP had mentioned. And, it shoots great! 

    As to reporting, I understood the club was looking for info on the Midway lot. I don't think this is one of those.

    I guess what I'm getting at is do I have something engineered by bubba, or are there some other examples out there that went to and came back from Italy in pretty pristine condition, with just a facelift at FAT. Wishful thinking I know, but, it's still a darn good shooter! Lou.
GSMC(SW),USN
2/77-11/89
Back to Top
New2brass View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

Joined: Nov 29 2015
Location: CT
Status: Offline
Points: 4627
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 14 2021 at 10:49pm
The serial numbers post on the CMP forum are not the CMP serials unless an owner submitted them.
You can contact the CMP to see if your serial was brought in through them.

The Army brings in the items and transfers them to the CMP. The Army is not subject to the GCA

The GCA 1968 required the import markings. The stock is marked FAT, can you make out the first number?

So the carbine may have been a CMP, or someone assembled a pre 68 carbine into that stock
as always, pics would be helpful


PS, I have a note to look for your TH hieroglyphic from another post, just been busy. If I do not answer in a week or so give me a nudge.



Edited by New2brass - Sep 14 2021 at 11:59pm
Back to Top
Oldboy53 View Drop Down
On Point
On Point
Avatar

Joined: May 19 2021
Location: Middle TN
Status: Offline
Points: 101
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldboy53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 15 2021 at 6:39pm
    Thanks Dan for the response. As to the CMP, I went back and checked my notes, and it seems I was just looking at old auction results, but nothing on regular sales. I'll have to contact them.

    I apologize for any confusion, but the FAT markings are on the barrel, above the chamber. The stock has no FAT. Smile

    As to the pics, would it be appropriate to post them here, or better to start a new thread? 

    And, on the hieroglyph, I was really just wondering if it's a partial, and if so, are there any examples of the entire mark. Thanks again, Lou.
GSMC(SW),USN
2/77-11/89
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.