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Ruth: SG Stock marked OI/40A, Found OI/39A |
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painter777 
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Joined: Feb 18 2016 Location: Central MI Status: Offline Points: 1718 |
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 Topic: Ruth: SG Stock marked OI/40A, Found OI/39APosted: Apr 09 2024 at 3:05pm |
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I left after my visit on good terms and had another planned but just shy of a year later broke my back when the lift I was operating was knocked over by a bigger lift ran by a steel worker. I had broken my back in multiple areas and wasn't until 2 years after my initial visit when my return visit was denied. No telling what I may or may not have found out by being able to read another log or two.
In my opening post of this thread I brought up: "Did he (Larry) believe the letter/number codes used by Saginaw SG had some rhyme and reason to them, maybe a increasing number and letter as production moved forward ? IF Based on increasing number/letter codes... Could these have been based on Deliveries as accepted by SG? I've often thought the added markings could have been applied by a In House Stock Inspector at Saginaw, before assembly commenced in that stock. Assume they would have inspected deliveries and possibly used different gages and jigs to inspect them with. Maybe numbers/letters were related to order numbers/invoices. Letters to a inspection section and or shift." From Robert's log it was clear S'G' had 6 FINAL FITMENT INSPECTION STATIONS that were listed as A-F. And likely added another when A-F were strained, which most likely would be G. Note: I didn't read anything in the log about S'G' stamping stocks with these letters. Is this a Coincidence these are the same letters we see in SG stocks from the supplier of stocks to them ? I like Dan's thoughts on the numbers being Delivery numbers. The timeline seems to fit and makes sense. We know the Irwins stamped RSG. Was the Letter Inspector Stamp added by S'G' to stocks being shipped to SG ? Then stock piled until there were enough to fulfill the next shipment? I can't see adding the next Shipment number until the dates for it is known or ready. I'm assuming S'G' didn't Stamp the 'Delivery number' they just crated up and assigned a Delivery order. SG applied the Shipment number upon receipt and Stamped that in their slingwells. So is it possible the letter was stamped by S'G' and Delivery Number by SG ? This gave SG the Inspection Station used at S'G' and the Delivery Number for tracking any 'Problems'. Why no Letters on S'G' Stocks... S'G' stocks for in house use (after IR-IP) were stamped RSG and had no use of the Letter Inspection Stamps. After passing the A-F and sometimes G stations, these stocks continued on ready for Final assembly. Maybe right maybe wrong, or I've just raised more questions..... Charlie-Painter777 |
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Matt_X
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Posted: Apr 05 2024 at 10:14pm |
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Exactly. Problems could be narrowed to a shift or batch and a way to keep track of the carbines because the serial numbers at Saginaw were getting jumbled from the get go even using some S'G' receivers. So what I'm saying is that these letters and numbers were added at the plant in Saginaw. I am speculating they may have been added after the stock was assembled to a carbine. Some are clearly stamped over the RSG (or Trimble, RMC, and OI) So I don't think its an issue with the stocks. It's something about the internal tracking method at the Saginaw factory that differed from their operation at Grand Rapids. Now your suggestion throws additional questions in. Did transfer stocks go to Irwin for stockpiling and/or inspection rather than directly to the plants? But if so, why no stamps in the S'G' stocks? Or did they have in-house inspection at Grand Rapids and not at Saginaw?
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painter777
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Joined: Feb 18 2016 Location: Central MI Status: Offline Points: 1718 |
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Posted: Apr 05 2024 at 7:46pm |
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Marty,
It reads / sounds worse than it was. They were just really cautious. Maybe rightly so, I don't know all the ins and outs of Stadium and Theatre seating. Maybe a lot of Trade / Design secrets that need to be kept close to the vest. Currently I see they've done 23 of 32 NHL Arenas. 18 of 29 NBA Arenas. 18 of 30 NFL Stadiums. 20 of 30 MLB Stadiums. 93% of Broadway Theatres. Thousands of Movie Theatres. And many other venues. The Lady Irwin was friendly as could be and a few ole timers who were called and came because of what I was up to could remember when it was operational. Don't know if related or older employees but they knew their way around, they came in (about 3 of them) fresh off their farms, with bibs still on and that fresh.... what'd ya step in smell from their boots. I think if it was just the Ladies call I could have got back in. Charlie-Painter777 |
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painter777
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Joined: Feb 18 2016 Location: Central MI Status: Offline Points: 1718 |
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Posted: Apr 05 2024 at 7:24pm |
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Pretty good thought but, What does it accomplish? Problem with a batch..... Track it back to a day of a week? What week? Robert Irwin was a furniture maker on a mass scale. Take their trademark schoolroom desks for example. A station was set up for each part. A leg was cut and when ready was placed in a fitment jig next to that station. If it passed it moved on. Now building stocks he used a similar set up because that's what he knew worked. After all the steps to making a stock they were moved to 6 FINAL FITMENT INSPECTION STATIONS that were listed as A-F. A note to add another for temporary use when the main Stations were strained was noted with a asterisk. Robert Irwin wrote about not liking having transfer stocks coming in, because they needed more fitting, he felt they were sending him 2nds costing him repair time doing patch work. So there were 6 FINAL FITMENT INSPECTION STATIONS listed A thru F with a additional likely added when A-F were strained, which likely could be G. Now if a Batch have issues they can be tracked back to the Station that did the Final Fitment / Inspection. My source came directly from the Irwin family allowing me to read about ~6 weeks worth of Robert Irwins hand written Dailey Log post Pedersen. On the conditions that I take no written notes, no pictures, no copying.. etc. They were friendly enough but told me the log included some of his personal opinions about Ordnance, People and things that they couldn't take a chance of being liable of even to this day... per their lawyer (they still to this day seek out Government contracts). I asked then why let me read it, which they replied that anything I said would be considered my opinion or hearsay in a court of law. Irwin Worker Grand Rapids, Michigan  Grand Rapids Worker Fitting Stock Assembly  Charlie-Painter777
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Marty Black
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Editor in Chief Emeritus Joined: Dec 30 2015 Location: Pismo Beach, CA Status: Offline Points: 100339 |
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Posted: Apr 05 2024 at 7:23pm |
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Fascinating story and you certainly "jumped through a lot of hoops" to get as far as you did! Congratulations on your persistence to learn more about Irwin. I was amazed at the security, the lawyer, the family members in attendance, etc. That must've been an unforgettable experience!
Thanks for sharing, mb |
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Marty Black
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painter777
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Posted: Apr 05 2024 at 7:02pm |
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I'm going to Add a New Post below to clear up the information about the letters in the slingwells on Irwin stocks.
Please Do Not try to contact this company. They are a 1st class world wide stadium seating company. They are not open to the public nor open for inquires about their WWII history. Roughly 2001, I was trying to arrange a visit to the Irwin Seating Co in Grand Rapids, Mi about an hour from home. Earlier I had inquired about their WWII history and they sent me a book with a couple pages of the history. It mentioned Robert Irwin keeping a daily log. After several back and forth calls and emails along with me agreeing to a background check I was able to set up a appointment or better said a interview first. After I got the OK a interview date was set. I was called in to a room with security, a lady who ended up being a Irwin family member and a lawyer. Went thru a metal detector and patted down then interrogated being asked if I worked for any Media, was writing a book or associated with anything likewise etc. Keep in mind this was a interview and I'd already been thru a background check and wasn't looking for a job. My plan was to get enough if found to do a CC report. If I'd of said yes to any I'd of been asked to leave. I just told them I was a fellow Michigander that collected the Carbines but especially the stocks they made during the War and how I thought Robert Irwin had got a raw deal from his arranged marriage with Pedersen. That I knew Robert was a skilled businessman and while Pedersen may have been a good gun designer but had no production skills just connections. They were impressed with my knowledge of their history, Roberts work at organizing other Grand River Valley Companies to get War Time contracts and my collection. I was able to use one of their computers and back then show them my files of pictures on Photobucket of RSG stocks and markings. After this they had a small meeting and gave me a Date I could return and view some archives. At this point I didn't know if I'd get to see a Log or just some WWII company historic items might have on hand, but I'd come this far and it's just a little over an hour from home. I figured anything was a bonus. On my return trip, My pen and clip board had to be left when I entered the room with a guard. The same lady (A Irwin relation) brought out the log, gave me gloves and set by my side while I tried to read his writing. I seen her sift thru a number of the same color logs bringing out just this one specific one. Being hand picked I've often wondered how 'Juicy' some of those others might have been. She helped me with what writing I couldn't make out. Much of it was general notes about meetings and observations as he'd walk thru the plant, etc. But when I came across anything Carbine most of it was Post Pedersen, in the early part Robert was complaining on parts being rejected. Same parts after rejection he'd have shipped to SG or Rock Ola and they'd be accepted with no issues. Lots of stuff about increase this, loss recovery, man power etc. Sometimes near a topic he placed a Asterisk then on the side of the page another Asterisk and expand on it, Like: * Gauges Station 7. Before I was done there were a number of Irwin family members in the room with me that weren't aware of how deep their WWII history was. Upon leaving I was told I was welcome to come again, but a attempt 2 years later was rejected. Kindly but rejected. Robert Irwin was a man that loved his city and community. But ran a tight ship. Charlie-Painter777 Once over and back in the truck I left long voice mails multiple times on the cell phone while fresh on my mind. I also wrote down everything I could remember there in the parking lot and more voice mails on the drive home. |
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New2brass
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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4657 |
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Posted: Apr 05 2024 at 1:05pm |
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RMC stocks were reported into either fall or late 43. Need to check the RMC update. Think it was questioned that they over produced or did not switch over all patterns on machines for stocks. The scenario of first in last out has plausiblity. Consider what space a few thousand stocks take. Just the same if they were reaching out for stocks I would think they needed sooner than later
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Matt_X
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Posted: Apr 04 2024 at 2:03pm |
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Dan. It seems like one of the better possibilities to pursue investigating. A couple of sidenotes: The U 7 stock was reported in Ruth WB! but there is no additional info. U could be a C sideways or an oval 0 or some other stamp that at the time Larry or his reporter was not thinking about. I grouped the type I stocks together under the assumption these were all made, and therefore used, before any type 2 stocks. The first assumption is probably false. Correct me if I'm wrong, but its been stated that RMC continued making Type I stocks while other manufacturers were making Type 2 stocks (oval oiler slots). The second assumption, that stocks were used in the order they arrived, depends on the organization of the stock room, and how parts were moved around. Therefore its possible that (a) RMC type I stocks were transfered to SG after Irwin was delivering Type 2 stocks. (b) RMC type I stocks were transfered earlier but were in the back of the room so did not get pulled until demand on the production line was exceeding stock deliveries. In fact there is a transfer of 100 Overton and 1000 RMC stocks to S'G' in late 1942, which if not all used at Grand Rapids could have been available for Saginaw to draw on. (WBIII p. 1178) Next update to the list will be sorted in numerical sequence.
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New2brass
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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4657 |
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Posted: Apr 04 2024 at 10:19am |
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Saginaw in Saginaw and Grand Rapids were the same company, the same contract. WB pages 492-493 show that combined there were 12 months of deliveries May 1943 to April 1944 The highest number it 105. weeks in the year is 52. 52 x 2 =104 which is one number off the 105. looking at the 1943 and 1944 calendars and counting the Saturdays there would be 53 weeks. PURE SPECULATION If they did bi-weekly deliveries, or maybe counts/ crating etc the A-G gets kind of off the tracks if they had 2 shifts a day this sort of fits. issues with the system that requires a little research, Saginaw location sent stuff to Grand Rapids to be finished due to needing to ramp up machine gun production. I am unclear if carbine production was halted, reduced. Did production continue after that? Grand Rapids factory did a speedy end so they can turn to injector production as a priority. Now you have to consider those days no carbines were completed at Saginaw MI and therefor absent numbers The same goes if the factory was closed for a holiday. Did they only operate two shifts? If victory shifts (second shifts) were less than a full 8 hours then we would see less of the presumed letters that were part of that shift. I am sure there are other factors that need to be considered as well. Thoughts? |
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Matt_X
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Posted: Apr 03 2024 at 6:42pm |
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While adding a couple more to the spreadsheet from the Bavarian Armory page, it does look like we have some sort of chronological sequence. Maybe the stamp was added after the stock was assembled to the reciever and served as a means to track date and shift as we speculated about earlier. It also occured to me the only letter stamps so far are A through F, and 1 G. 7 letters. Days of the week ??
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Marty Black
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Posted: Mar 04 2024 at 11:09am |
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Continuing the discussion on the Integration Committee, another possibility is that ALL parts transfers were made with Committee authorization/approval. The "undocumented" or "direct" transfers that collectors have discovered over the years MAY be Integration Committee transfers for which documentation has never been discovered.
I personally think that transfers were made outside the purview of the Committee for short-notice shortages or problems. The prime manufacturers and subcontractors all faced the same challenges and served the same master (the Ordnance Dept). Although the corporate General Managers were likely strong competitors in the manufacturing industry, carbine factory production managers and others in lower management were concerned only with meeting production goals. Hence, their motivation to help each other out when needed. The more we learn, the more questions we have! Regards, mb |
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Marty Black
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Marty Black
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Posted: Mar 03 2024 at 1:43pm |
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Say Matt and all,
My understanding about the Integration Committee (my understanding only, because I cannot locate or remember the documentation that I saw decades ago - perhaps in Larry Ruth's first book, the softbound one...or perhaps in a large stack of National Archives documents (copies) that Ken Schliesmann had. In the 1970s, Ken was researching to write a book about carbines also, but Larry published his first.) Anyhow, my understanding is that the Integration Committee was the Expeditor for all carbine production. If a prime manufacturer or subcontractor had difficulties due to supply issues, raw material issues, tools and machines, labor difficulties, etc., the Committee would coordinate assistance to keep everyone's production moving. With 9 prime manufacturers and about 1000 subcontractors over the course of production, this was a HUGE task! As we would say today "There were a lot of moving parts!" In regards to the incompleteness of the lists of Integrated Parts in "War Baby," note that the dates preceded by an X were taken (by Larry) from Requests or Authorization (approval) documents....and the other dates are from actual shipping date documents. Try to reconcile the X dates and quantities of parts, with the shipping dates and quantities of parts, and we can see that many, many documents were not found by Larry. The lists published in "War Baby" have been very useful to us, but they are also very incomplete. Then, when we try to factor in the obvious sales/trading/loaning of parts directly between manufacturers and between subcontractors - bypassing the Integration Committee to avoid delay or embarrassment - we have an unknown mix of parts among factory-original carbines. Hence, collectors should resist the temptation to "correct" a part or two on a carbine that otherwise appears to be factory-original. It very well may be! Regards, mb |
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Marty Black
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Matt_X
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Posted: Mar 03 2024 at 12:14pm |
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Marty, Thanks. That addresses what I didn't understand and was asking about. So the Integration Committee typically got involved in the transfers. And the transfer lists in WB are largely from records the integration committee. I couldn't tell how much they were normally involved beyond the memo in WB about having a government inspector check the parts before shipping. - Matt
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Marty Black
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Posted: Mar 01 2024 at 7:58pm |
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Was there a distinct procedural difference between normal transfers and those helped along by the Integration Committee? [/QUOTE] I'm not sure what you mean by "normal transfers." Over the decades the Carbine Club has seen plenty of evidence that the prime manufacturers and the subcontractors helped each other out to avoid the delays and bureaucracy of the Integration Committee. Presumably these "help me out and I'll help you out" transfers were initiated and coordinated with a phone call or a telegram. Every company involved in carbine manufacture were serving the same master, the Ordnance Dep't, and it was in everyone's best interest to "cooperate and graduate." And after the carbine contracts were cancelled, I doubt that any prime manufacturer or subcontractor listed these direct transfers on any documentation to be sent to the Ordnance Department or the National Archives. And we must remember that the Carbine Industry Integration Committee records found in War Baby are ONLY those that Larry Ruth found at the National Archives. It is anyone's guess how many hundreds/thousands of other transfer documentations were thrown away, lost, misplaced, destroyed at war's end. There was really no historical or national security reason why any of those CIIC transfer records were retained in the first place. Larry was lucky to find what he did! (And so are we!) Regards, mb |
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Marty Black
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Mike in NC
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Posted: Mar 01 2024 at 6:03pm |
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One more to add. A highwood oval stock with an ordnance bomb in about the middle of the sling cut and a "13A" and small font "RSG" at the bottom of the sling cut.
Stock has the expected SG in a box and crossed cannon on the right side of the stock. This came on a 3.249 million S.G. (not S'G') but I have been told that a previous owner replaced a pot belly stock with this nice SG stock, so I don't believe it to be original to this carbine. |
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Matt_X
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Posted: Mar 01 2024 at 12:41pm |
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Thank you. Those seem to fall into emerging patterns. I have to ask, why all of the Overton, RMC, and Trimble stocks at SG? Do these line up with Saginaw's highest production months? or Irwin could not produce enough early on for both Saginaw factories? There are no stock transfers to Saginaw reported in WB! or WB3. Some certainly seem to be originally intended for other primes. IO for example. But WB3 is a copy of JB Powers' chart which is labelled "Integrated" stocks. Was there a distinct procedural difference between normal trnasfers and those helped along by the Integration Committee?
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Mike in NC
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Posted: Feb 27 2024 at 12:44pm |
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One more Saginaw sling cut marking to add to the list. Highwood oval, small font RSG in upper right corner of sling cut, 32C followed by a small bomb in the bottom right corner of the sling cut. This was a loose stock.
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Superdort
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Posted: Feb 18 2024 at 8:07am |
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Hi,
Have here A Trimble/TN Highwood stock with I think 43B or 48D in the slingwell. Stock was mounted on my QRMC Carbine. Stock is sadly sanded so no other markings.    |
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Matt_X
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Posted: Oct 14 2023 at 10:50am |
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Updated list of Slingwell stamped stocks. Trying a couple of new things. * This as an image and maybe it will be easier to read. * Sorted the list by stock type first, then by stamp number, with some decisions based on the carbine serial number and stamp size. These are my guesses based on the discussion so far about possible chronology. Arguably the stock stamped bomb 1 E could be at the top of the list, etc. * Adding the column showing size and location of the stock manufacturer stamp. The smaller RSG stamp seems to be earlier, and larger stamp later.  8 A and bomb A 8 may be the same stock but recorded twice. Edited by Matt_X - Oct 14 2023 at 11:11am |
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New2brass
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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4657 |
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Posted: Oct 13 2023 at 11:15am |
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Butt plate is a transitional Winchester. Saginaw was making receivers for Inland before they took over the IP contract. They started with narrow tang. The wide tang shows up in the Inland 8008xx range of SAG produced receivers. See CCNL 346-3 I would add a note of a possible on the IO with the 9
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painter777 wrote: