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Seeking confirmation on Buttstock variation ? |
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dpast32 
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 Topic: Seeking confirmation on Buttstock variation ?Posted: Apr 26 2022 at 2:26pm |
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Hello Gents, I'm attempting to determine exactly what type of Stock is on my seemingly unaltered M1 Carbine, 'unaltered' except for its Buttstock, & possibly the Handguard ? The Carbine is; Underwood mfg., early, 1st block production of APRIL 1943. ( Barrel dated 4 - 43 / Serial # 14010XX / Non Import ) It has all the correct, early Underwood proofs, & is totally early production piece, with all correct, early issue components, except the Buttstock & Handguard, as noted. ( Even it's 15 rd GI magazine is Underwood proofed. ) The "as noted" parts as as follows: 1) It's BUTTSTOCK is a walnut, USGI Arsenal re-work of either late WW2 of post -war mfg. ( Note that this particular Carbine was almost assuredly brought home from WW2 by an U.S. Engineer Corps Lieutenant, & in his attempt to get it home, he removed the Stock components & transported the Barreled Action home in his Duffle Bag. ) That's why as obtained, it was wearing the Stock / Handguard I'm inquiring about here. Whatever anyone could tell me about this weapon will be very much appreciated ! The relevant details are as follows;
The stock mkgs are: a "P" proof on front of pistol grip, along with an "AN" stamp on left front, just ahead of sling / oiler cut. 2) What I didn't include in my initial Post, was the information I just found on my Stock. It appears to be an Type 1 variant, walnut, with no apparent updates / Arsenal modifications performed, as in channel length, channel width, middle bridge is present & correct. The only Markings I can find are; 1) 'T' about 1.5" down from the Stock's tip, in the top channel, & it looks to have been stamped upside down. 2) there's 2 marks along the rear Stock 'ridge', just ahead of the Recoil Plate, which almost look like '" / 2 quotation marks, but may just be a stamping that didn't come our properly ? 3) lastly, the early, walnut 2 Rivet Hand guard is marked either 'IO' or 'OI'. At least to me, this looks like an early Type 1, or possibly Type 2, which doesn't appear to have gone through any Arsenal updates ? Yet, it does exhibit an 'AN' Arsenal stamp along its left side ? If anyone happens to know anything about this particular Stock, I will deeply appreciate hearing from them. THANK YOU Guys !! Best regards, Dom P. |
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W5USMC
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Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Online Points: 2959 |
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Posted: Apr 26 2022 at 2:51pm |
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Dom, we really need to see some pictures of the stock. Are there any markings in the sling well, they can be very hard to see? As far as your handguard goes it is OI (made by Overton for Inland). If you are having trouble posting pictures on this forum I will gladly PM you my email address and you can send the pictures to me so I can post them.
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Wayne
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dpast32
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Posted: Apr 26 2022 at 4:41pm |
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THANK YOU Wayne, I appreciate the Reply. I guess I'll have to get some photos up for everyone. I'm fairly certain that there's no discernible marking inside the sling cut, as I really tried with a light & all ? The one unlegible stamp that's on the right side, just ahead of the Recoil Plate may indeed mean something, but it's probably going to take something much more well versed in the subject than myself to decipher. So, tomorrow I'll try to get the Posted, & if I can't, I chat take you up on your kind offer of assistance in getting them Posted. THANKS AGAIN, & please 'stay tuned'.
Best, Dom P.              Edited by W5USMC - Apr 29 2022 at 11:44am |
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W5USMC
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Posted: Apr 27 2022 at 4:34pm |
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Pictures added above. Type 2 stock that has had the high wood portion removed. With the T in the barrel channel and that other marking on the right ledge of receiver well makes me think possibly a Winchester stock. Also thinking early Underwood butt plate, but I am terrible at butt plate identification all I see is dots.
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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dpast32
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Posted: Apr 27 2022 at 5:04pm |
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THANK YOU VERY MUCH My Friend, I really do appreciate all your kind assistance here ! I had an inkling that it match have been an 'earlier' rather than later type, my based on the fact of never having been modified inside. I would just love to know how this particular Stock ended up being on this Carbine ? But, as I've surmised, I believe the gun itself came home from overseas sans the Buttstock, primarily to facilitate his getting it through U.S. Customs, & then simply picked up whatever Stock he could find once back home. As the gun itself is all Underwood, complete with all the correct early features, such as flip rear sight, early magazine catch, & so forth. Plus, it's even sporting an early 2 Rivet Handguard. We all know what the probability of my obtaining the correct Type 1, probably Oval Sling Cut Stock, but just imagine if I did !! But, that's dreaming, unless I wanted to pay big bucks ? Anyone else happens to see anything of Interest on this Stock, I would love to hear from them. THANKS AGAIN !!
Best, Dom P.
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jackp1028
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Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Cloudcroft, NM Status: Offline Points: 1276 |
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Posted: Apr 27 2022 at 6:00pm |
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Hi Dom and welcome to the forum from New Mexico!
Check with What-A-Country for an Underwood stock. I've had good luck finding decent stocks for a reasonable price from them. Their Damaged/Blemished stocks are often easily repairable. https://whatacountry.com/stocks-m1-carbine.aspx |
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JackP
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New2brass
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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4660 |
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Posted: Apr 27 2022 at 6:22pm |
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Underwood BP. Does the stock have a flat-ish bottom? Most likely Winchester and the W in slingwell is at times hard to find. one way to rule out most other stocks makes is to take off the buttplate and see if there are two extra holes in the butt. Many in the hobby "correct" carbines. If you post some pictures we may be able to say original or or corrected. Check the staking marks for your rear sight. Look at at mid barrel carefully for any markings from a T3 band.
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Matt_X
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Posted: Apr 27 2022 at 7:02pm |
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Some clues to Winchester made stocks in these two threads. |
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painter777
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Posted: Apr 28 2022 at 5:50pm |
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@ Matt,
I forgot about having that Parquet flooring in the downstairs wet bar area. It held up well. I dated a gal in school, her father's roommate at Ohio State was John Havlicek. I got to meet him several times as he was my favorite BB player. I wore his #17 in school. He played for Boston and sent along a pendant for me that is part of the flooring when it was removed from Boston Gardens. 16 of Bostons 17 championships were played on this flooring. @OP / Dom, Yes to WRA stock, Raised wood profile around the recoil plate nut area is a tell tale along with the router bit size forward of the bridge, Cheers All, Charlie-P777
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Living Free because of those that serve.....
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dpast32
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Posted: Apr 29 2022 at 9:07am |
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Good Morning Gents, So, based upon the tentative concensus of more than one of us here, can I be certain that it is an Winchester manufactured Stock, matched up with an Inland, early 2 Rivet Handguard ? OR, should I perhaps remove the Buttplate to confirm just a little more ? As soon as I get a chance, I'll also Post up some shots of the Barreled Action & related Components for everyone to look over. As far as I can discern, everything except the Stock / Handguard 'appears' to be of early Underwood production, relative to its Barrel Date of April 1943 [ 4-43 ]. But, we must keep in mind that although I've been collecting, researching, & dealing with firearms for around 50 years now, I can't however say I'm am M-1 Carbine expert ! Sadly, this particular example is my only Carbine at the moment, & only because I thought I would have been able to research & document it. All in all, I ended up into it complete with 6x USGI Magazines, 600 rds of Wolf ammunition for $700 even. I guess I shouldn't complain, right ? Once I've confirmed the Stock's Producer / Type, then my BIG decision will arise. Shall I leave it 'as is', for use as an 'Shooter', & it has been fired & functioned perfectly. OR, should I look into locating the correct, as issued Stock / Handguard combo in an attempt at 're'-creating it as it would have been as it shipped from Underwood in April 1943 ?? Sooooo, I say THANK YOU AGAIN Gentlemen, for all your very kind Replies !! Each & everyone was truly appreciated ! I will of course love to hear anything else pertaining to this Carbine, & especially as what exactly should I do with it in regards to obtaining an 'new' Stock ?
Best, Dom P. / 'dpast32'
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dpast32
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Posted: May 01 2022 at 3:09pm |
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Hello Folks, Well, I disassembled my Carbine as much as I felt comfortable with, & found pretty much what I had initially surmised. Now again, I am not a M1 Carbine Expert, but based on what evidence I've found, I 'think' that this exists is all Underwood, except of course for the aforementioned Buttstock / Handguard assemblies. I'm trying to get away without taking a bunch of photos, & will list my recent findings here below. If we absolutely need photos for confirmation, please advise & I'll have to get the relevant areas where I found the markings ? OK, here we go;
A) OPERATING ROD = Ordnance 'Flaming Bomb' mkg, just right not opened Locking Pin B) TRIGGER GUARD = Ordnance Bomb ( as above ), on bottom just up forward of Safety Button C) REAR MAGAZINE WELL = .U. inside of rear wall, towards top of well D) HAMMER = .U. on left side, in between the 2 'lugs' E) MAGAZINE CATCH = .U. on left of rear wall, inside Magazine Well F) FRONT SIGHT = .U. in between the 2 'wings', just after Front Post G) REAR SIGHT = on Rear Sight 'Blade', on outside facing muzzle That 'appears' to be what Underwood markings I can find, at least to the extent of my dissassembly. ( IN FACT, I'm already having difficulty in getting the Recoil Spring assembly back into place ? Is there any special 'trick', & or sequence of events I should be following ? ) I just want to THANK everyone here again for all their kind assistance, it was very much appreciated ! Of course I will extremely interested in 'anything' I could learn concerning these particular markings. Best, Dom P.
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painter777
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Posted: May 01 2022 at 4:28pm |
@Dom P, Your parts ID as being for Underwood. For us to tell if it's original vs a corrected carbine we'd need to know which type these parts are. Meaning if they are correct per the serial range/era of the carbine. Without seeing, say the rear sight and any dovetail staking, Mag catch and barrel band... Without detailed pictures We can't tell if they are real USGI parts. Also wear patterns need to be examined. I suggest you look over and fill out a Data Sheet. For Wear Patterns, I like to picture as I dis assemble before cleaning. This link will give you a idea how and what wear to look for: As far as if you should find another stock or not....... If mine? I'd want to verify that it is indeed in as issued condition with Real Parts first before replacing the stock. I'll repeat, Your stock was made by WRA. I know of no stock transfers from WRA to UEF. Your WRA stock has been repaired near the Hi-Wood area not consistent per Ordnance Regs. It has also been at AN. I'd expect the sanding and refinish were civilian workmanship. Cheers, Charlie-P777
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Living Free because of those that serve.....
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dpast32
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Posted: May 01 2022 at 5:36pm |
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OK Charlie, you talked me into taking some photos ! Also, I do believe my Rear Sight at least 'appears' to have been staked. They look like 2, small 'dots', obviously staked marks on either side of the front of the Rear Sight. I realize any true Collector will insist on firm confirmation when making an determination on any item of interest. The only components I haven't confirmed yet are the Trigger Group's internals, except for the above noted Magazine Catch & Magazine Well itself. And, I haven't pulled the Bolt out, as I always end up having some issue getting it back together ! ( It is the earlier 'Flat Bolt' variety though. ) Sooooo, I will get some photos taken, & if I can impose again my Forum Friend who so very kindly offered to Post my initial photos, I should be able to get them up hopefully tomorrow. I'll start with the 7 mentioned markings I listed above, & then we'll go from there. THANKS AGAIN Charlie, I seriously appreciate your kind assistance !!
Best, Dom P.               Edited by W5USMC - May 02 2022 at 11:20pm |
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dpast32
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Posted: May 03 2022 at 11:00am |
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And yet again, I THANK YOU Wayne, very, very much for all your extremely kind assistance in getting all my photos up. I figured that if I sent you a large batch, you would know exactly which ones would be most useful in determining what we needed to to make a relative assessment, & confirmation as to this particular Carbine's originality ? If anyone here wishes to view any other area or components, please advise, as I may have also photographed the area in question, & just haven't posted it up yet ? And lastly, THANK YOU Guys, very much as I truly do appreciate everyone's apparent willingness to assist me with this 'project' !
Best regards, Dom Pastore Jr.
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dpast32
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Posted: May 06 2022 at 3:02pm |
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Hello Guys, If anyone happens to have any ideas as to the pictured components that have been Posted, I would deeply appreciate hearing from them. Basically, my primary interest here is determining if this Carbine appears to be an unmolested, 'as issued' example, which would benefit from my 'attempting' to find the correct Stock / Handguard Group ? We all know pretty much what I'll end up paying for an original Stock, if I can actually locate one in the first place ! ANY advice on this issue will be greatly appreciated !! THANK YOU,
Best, Dom P.
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New2brass wrote: