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Iver Johnson, gunsmith, Maryland

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armonica View Drop Down
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    Posted: Jan 06 2021 at 10:25pm
Looking for a gunsmith that can look at the barrel/bolt area. Iver Johnson, made in New Jersey, AA07414. I'm in the Southern Maryland area.

Problem is just to the left of the barrel. When the hammer is down the bolt has to push it back. When the handle goes back it's supposed to rotate the bolt. The upper left side seems to act like a bushing in normal Carbines. This one is either missing that piece or something has happened. It lifts the bolt instead and that's causing a jam type condition. Wondering if it can be repaired or it's a parts gun.

This gun had a misfire. The cartridge went off and blew the magazine to pieces. No one was hurt. The cartridge failed right before the ejection slot in the cartridge. About a 1/2 mm by it went half way around. A gun smith looked at it and said it's ok now. I ran about 30 rounds through it and I'm not so sure it's safe. I also own a first run Inland. There's definitely a difference I hope the pictures illustrate.




Thanks,
Rob
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/6404/0106211844.jpg

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/6404/0106211844a.jpg

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/6404/0106211835a.jpeg






Edited by New2brass - Jan 07 2021 at 1:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 07 2021 at 5:57am
Very difficult to diagnose from the pictures. The bolt seems to be rotated. As opposed to a barrel-skirt, IJ cast a lug in the receiver just forward of the left lug recess to serve the purpose of a skirt, so it doesn’t look like anything is missing. Left lug lock-up in an IJ is sloppy when compared to a GI or GI spec receiver, so that does not appear to far from the IJ norm. There is obvious receiver damage on the left side judging from the visible rub-marks below the left lug recess. Maybe the receiver has been warped slightly, just not completely obvious. The left lug lock-up does look a little sloppy, even for an IJ.

Glad you survived the out of battery discharge, I don’t think the carbine did.







Edited by floydthecat - Jan 07 2021 at 6:44am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 03manV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 07 2021 at 8:44am
I agree with floyd, I would likely scrap the receiver; 
but first I'd like to see:
-picture of the bottom of the receiver -close up,
-rear of the bolt
-bolt lugs from the top and bottom, with the bolt out of the receiver.
Don
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 07 2021 at 1:56pm
Links fixed, Pics cropped and posted

Is the extractor digging into the top of the receiver in the barrel area?
Has the headspace been checked?
Pics of the bolt lugs and the slide cam would be helpful
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 1st M1 88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 07 2021 at 2:08pm
The receiver in first picture looks like it may be cracked.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 07 2021 at 2:11pm
Dan is our “Mister Wizard”.

Looking at those pictures, might be an optical illusion, but the left rail seems to be bowed outward a little and there really is a lot of clearance in the left lug area....more than what I see in an IJ I have or the ones I’ve seen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote armonica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 07 2021 at 2:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 03manV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 07 2021 at 4:16pm
Rear of bolt, and entire bottom of receiver please.

I think you may have had an out of battery fire, so would like to see the type bolt and receiver you have.
Don
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote armonica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 07 2021 at 4:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 07 2021 at 5:54pm
Lets revisit your description of the problem. You say when the slide is pulled rearward, the bolt does not rotate, but hangs-up?

If you had some spare parts or a loaner gun, you should be able to pin down the problem by substitution. Even confirm the condition of the receiver.

I would gladly take your slide and bolt to try in another IJ and/or GI carbine....just pay postage.

Edit: Pardon me, but I just reread your initial post and you can swap parts around with your Inland.


Edited by floydthecat - Jan 07 2021 at 6:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote armonica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 07 2021 at 6:46pm
I was sighting it in along with a 12GA with a scope for deer hunting. I noticed it wasn't right. Ejection and cycle wasn't right. Usually a M1 carbine as you know cycles well. It's a fun rifle to shoot. This rifle not so much. It would even get the cartridge case stuck between the handle and the receiver. It was a PIA to use.

While at the gunsmith I noticed that between the Inland and the IJ that the Inland as soon as I'd pull the handle back and it touched the bolt it would start to rotate. The IJ I would pull it back, it would touch, lift the bolt up until it hit the receiver and then it would start to rotate. Not much, however not much is probably 30 or 40 thousands. By that time the handle is back more and now it seemed to catch on the receiver closest to the handle. I wondered if it was as simple as a piece of metal to close that gap more to the bolt and cause it to rotate properly.

Took my Inland apart and carefully laid it out so I'm sure which parts go to which gun. The IJ parts in the Inland I think would be fine. I moved the bolt, handle, spring and trigger assembly. It's not like the Inland parts, however it's very close. If I put it in a rack of 10 rifles I'm not sure you would know which one it is unless you looked at the handle or bolt. Moving the Inland parts to the IJ it clearly works better. I can tell there is still something that's not right. I started to look at the receivers very closely. How the bolts run down the grooves. I think I found the problem. See picture.


As you can see where there's supposed to be slide metal, some of it's not there any more. The other side looks identical to the Inland. It's looking like this is probably a bad receiver.... right? I think everything else is ok except maybe the bolt. Can I do anything about this or it's done?

Thanks,
Rob

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 07 2021 at 7:26pm
Some of that shelf is missing on any receiver, it’s machined that way. I can’t say that might be causing the left lug to drop. The slide holds the right bolt lug in such a position that I don’t think the left lug “rides” on that shelf. We had already indicated that left side could be damaged though. There could be some burrs along that section that appears to be broken impeding left lug travel? With the slide removed, can you “finger” the bolt fore-and-aft to see if it runs smoothly?

If the IJ bolt and slide runs on the inland, that indicates some issue with the receiver, but I don’t think it’s the missing metal, burrs maybe. The left lug pretty much floats across that area.

If the bolt is never unlocking to start it’s rearward travel, the left lug never is reaching that area yet. Greater concern might be at the front of that shelf where it looks like the left lug is making serious contact.... not farther back.

When a gun explodes out of battery, you just have to imagine all the gyrations the components go thru. You’d need a slo-mo of the action to see what went where and how far. Weird things happen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote armonica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 07 2021 at 7:55pm
I don't feel a burr. However there is definitely a difference between the rifles. You're right, I don't think that's causing the main problem.

The big difference and I think the problem is all in how it unlocks. The inland rotates the bolt smoothly. The IJ is more like a binding action going on. I think if I can get that fixed it'll be good. If the hammer is cocked it's as smooth as it should be. All the trouble is when it's down.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 03manV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 07 2021 at 11:37pm
You have the "GI" type receiver an bolt.
At a minimum, I'd replace the bolt- it appears to me to show abnormal wear and shape at the locking lugs.

Since you have the Inland parts there, you can try the bolt and/or the bolt and slide in combination and
see how much better they work.

I note you said they were smoother, so I'd give it a shot.
Don
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bzh362 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 08 2021 at 1:13am
Ok, bear with me here.

After looking at your pictures and reading your descriptions I think that I have an idea what might be going on:

In one of your pictures, it looks like your extractor is proud of the bolt. 

You mentioned the bolt "lifted" before you had the out of battery detonation

I believe that the cam on the back of the bolt interfacing with the hammer causes the initial "lift" of the tail of the bolt. The bolt is now trying to rotate along 2 axes at once. 

With the piece on the upper right of your receiver gone, it is allowed to yaw slightly more. 

I believe that the left lug then contacts the receiver at an odd angle, causing the slight peening at the same time as the extractor is catching on the upper right damaged portion of the receiver (sharp angle seen in your initial 3 photos).

That is why when the hammer is back, and not interacting with the bolt cam, you do not get the same lift. 

While testing with the GI bolt might be informative, I personally would not fire this gun, even if the GI bolt felt like it was going to work. 

Just my .02

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 08 2021 at 4:55am
I have noticed the extractor is proud as well, but I have seen that before in commercial carbines. It did not matter what extractor was installed, anything would be proud in that particular bolt, but worked. One thing I did notice once with an IJ bolt was the nose of the extractor slightly protruding beyond the front bolt skirt causing a rub on the barrel breech when the bolt closed and rotated. One sure way to prove the extractor in-or-out is to simply remove it and install/cycle a stripped bolt. Of course, also inspect the nose of the extractor for rub-marks. If it is causing a rub, the nose can be dressed-back flush with the front skirt.

Rubs in the area of the extractor or the area of the barrel skirt (in a GI carbine) can result in failure to lock or unlock. IJ did not use a barrel skirt, but added a section in the receiver to take it’s place. Does this issue occur cycling on an empty chamber, on a loaded chamber....or both? The base of the round serves to align the bolt when closing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 08 2021 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by 1st M1 88 1st M1 88 wrote:

The receiver in first picture looks like it may be cracked.

Is Cracked..
Living Free because of those that serve.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote armonica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 08 2021 at 4:12pm
Where do you see the crack?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1st M1 88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 08 2021 at 11:53pm
I am not certain but in this pic it looks like a small crack.  It may be nothing at all and I should have stated that in my first post.  This is what I was looking at.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 03manV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 09 2021 at 12:03am
Looks like a small machining mark, not a crack- JMHO.
Don
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