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Making My Carbine Reliable for Home Defense

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Retired_LEO View Drop Down
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    Posted: Sep 03 2022 at 1:14pm
I just ordered 200 rounds of Precision One carbine ammo since the prices are now under a dollar a round and they seem to have a good reputation.  

I’m trying to make my carbine useful as a home defense weapon but so far have failed.  It’s not reliable and I can’t trust it yet.

First off, I bought 250 rounds of Armscor ammo, only to find out later that it might explode and blow up my carbine.  I’m afraid to use the stuff so I blew it that time….FAIL.  That Armscor ammo is going to sit in my vault, probably forever.  Great.

I got some reliable ammo a few weeks ago and took the carbine to the range and had a few failure to feed malfunctions.  Later, I realized that I’d reassembled the magazines incorrectly.  Yeah, I guess that’s another screw-up….FAIL.  So far, everything has been my fault, not the rifle.

I’ve put a bit of time and effort into the carbine and I want it to work.  I disassembled the bolt, got everything clean and lubed more than once.  The rifle is clean.  The magazines are clean with the springs and everything put together CORRECTLY now.

So - to prepare it for home defense, here’s the plan - tell me what you think:

1.  At the range, have the carbine in the same condition that it’ll be stored in which is:  a.  Empty chamber, b.  Safety off, c.  Pulled trigger (not cocked), d.  Full magazine inserted.   When I need it, all I’ll have to do is pull the bolt back and chamber a round and it’s ready.  (It’s in a vault that I have quick assess to).

2.  With the carbine in this empty chamber, loaded mag “standby” condition at the range, I’ve got to reliably chamber and fire a round from each of my 5 fully loaded magazines (four 15 round mags and one 30 round mag) until they’re empty.  I may be able to at least ID any bad magazines.  Basically, inserting a magazine, chambering a round and firing - repeat this drill over and over.

3. I also can’t see the front sight worth a darn so I’m going to dab a bit of white nail polish on it.

If all that’s successful, I’ll consider it reliable.  If I still get malfunctions at the range, I have to regard it exclusively as an heirloom and collectible and instead get an AR type short barrel “carbine” for home defense.

What do you think?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2022 at 1:34pm
Get brand new, NIW 15 round USGI mags. Midway had them. The grade 1’s are basically new also. I have bought several and they are great. While I have shot armscor ammo and it didn’t blow up, it feed feed poorly in 1 of my carbines and kept hitting the grooves in my barrel before chambering. Any GI-like bullet profile works fine for me. If surplus ammo is unavailable, LAX ammo/ Freedom munitions makes ammo that has fed reliable in all of my carbines. I also buy their projectiles (Xtreme bullets) to reload with. When I first got my inland it was a jam o matic. I cleaned the bolt, scrubbed the chamber, and changed the springs in the bolt. I now cannot remember the last time I had ANY failure in it. It is more reliable than any modern firearm I have. I must have shot at least 750 rounds in it without a failure. I know all my springs were Gunked up badly when I took the bolt apart. I probably could have just cleaned them but I went ahead and swapped them out. Also, SCRUB your chamber. I bought a special chamber brush for the carbine from Fulton (may be another better option available, but it’s what I used). Also, some will disagree, but only use USGI springs. I bought a wolf kit when I first got my carbines, and the springs were not within spec. Maybe I got a bad batch, but that was my experience.

What kind of failures are you having? Can you explain them?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2022 at 3:33pm
My .02

If you continue to be hit with failures to feed, see if you can narrow down when they hang up.  If I can't do that at the range (for example during competition) I use dummy rounds in the basement until I can replicate the problem. 
- It could be the feed lips, it could be the magazine position hanging the forward end a little low.
- it could be the feed ramp angle.  I don't know anything about Plainfields and I can't recall if we determined whether yours has a GI production receiver.

My understanding is Plainfields were bought by police so would expect at least some decent reliability on par with contemporary (1950s-60s) weapons.

I'll be interested in your experience with Precision One's .30 carbine and how the shells and bullet shape compare to the norm.

For home defense, everyone's situation is different, but my thinking is that going for the long gun will be when you are not in close quarters. So
* I'm not aware of any reason not to keep a magazine in the gun since its stored in a locked vault (ie safe from people (kids) who shouldn't be handling it.
* Chamber empty - makes it more drop safe, easy enough to chamber.
* 15 rounds in the magazine, I don't know what the long term spring set might be.  I might be tempted to download.  On the other hand if you are shooting every month, you'll find out if /when the springs start to compress.
* Ammo.  I'd keep an eye out for JSP and use that or maybe Hornady FTX.  That said, be worth looking up what Jim Cirillo used in his police work.
* Front sight - whatever works for you.   At least a couple of guys here have mounted optics. Over at Lucky Gunner Lounge (also on youtube) Chris Baker has a red dot on a picattiny rail hand guard replacement IIRC. 

As far lube. The later Field Manual explains the oiling a better than the very first edition (May 1942).    These guns definately want good lubrication.  Very light viscosity in most case, and not not excessive, but certainly not dry.   Grease only in heavy rain. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sawbones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2022 at 3:38pm
Sorry to hear about your dilemma.  Start w/ Rebel92 suggestions.  That alone might fix your problem.  I'll bet you are about to receive a deluge of very expert suggestions on how to fix the problem.

As for the Armscor ammo,  I'd suggest buying an impact bullet puller (Amazon 13 bucks), remove the bullets, dump the powder and sell the brass on this forum.  Whatwith the cost of factory ammo and reload material they'll probably go quickly.

Good luck!
"I think youngsters need to start thinking about what kind of world they will leave for me and Keith Richards". Willie Nelson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Retired_LEO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2022 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by Rebel92 Rebel92 wrote:

What kind of failures are you having? Can you explain them?

Thanks for the reply - I fired about 200 rounds through it at the range a while back.  The only malfunctions were failure to fully chamber a round, always on the first round of a fresh magazine.  It did that about 3 times.  All rounds after that 1st one chambered and fired fine.

I had just disassembled and cleaned the magazines the night before.  When I got home from the range, I disassembled them again and found I had put the springs in upside down in one of them.  That was probably the issue….operator error!

And yes, I don’t like to store magazines in any gun to capacity because that definitely seems like it would weaken the magazine spring.  I also unload and reload magazines periodically to release the tension on the magazine spring.  I unload and reload my Glock and Beretta handgun magazines from time to time for the same reason.  One of my firearms instructors during my career quoted some rule about doing that periodically….must’ve been from Sig cause that’s what we were firing then.

And you’re correct, that 1st field manual about the carbine was a rush job.  I’ve been using all Hoppes products lately on the carbine and they seem to do the best job.  I keep all metal surfaces oily wet and shiny - not dripping wet but close.  No oil is splattering around.  The chamber is spotless after a thorough cleaning with Hoppes solvent.  The bore is very lightly oiled after being cleaned.

I think the problem is me being so excited about shooting it that I put the magazine springs in wrong the night before the range.

Once my new ammo comes in, I’ll let you know if the carbine works ok.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rezin777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2022 at 4:17pm
Compression and decompression is what wears a magazine spring.

Leaving them loaded to capacity is fine for as long as needed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Retired_LEO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2022 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by Sawbones Sawbones wrote:

Sorry to hear about your dilemma.  Start w/ Rebel92 suggestions.  That alone might fix your problem.  I'll bet you are about to receive a deluge of very expert suggestions on how to fix the problem.

As for the Armscor ammo,  I'd suggest buying an impact bullet puller (Amazon 13 bucks), remove the bullets, dump the powder and sell the brass on this forum.  Whatwith the cost of factory ammo and reload material they'll probably go quickly.

Good luck!

I love expert suggestions so keep those coming!!!

I’ve been reading up on Armscor and I think even the brass is sub par.   That’s another one on me for getting too excited about shooting it and buying ammo without doing proper research.  A $250.00 lesson learned.   

I’d be ok with that ammo just being lousy - as I’d simply practice with it. When I found out it might damage the gun it’s fired in - it became useless…actually worse than useless.  I should get that bullet puller, disassemble each round and discard it all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Retired_LEO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2022 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by Rezin777 Rezin777 wrote:

Compression and decompression is what wears a magazine spring.

Leaving them loaded to capacity is fine for as long as needed.

IIRC, one of the M1 Carbine G.I. manuals required the trigger to be pulled before placing the weapon in long term storage.  Presumably to keep tension off the trigger spring.

Yes, keeping them loaded - that makes sense.  It’s contrary to what I was taught but - that is no surprise!  A lot of what we were taught was BS, for example:

Black coffee is bad - BS, it’s a natural antioxidant and is actually good for your liver.
Eggs will make your cholesterol level go up - BS, they contain cholesterol but don’t affect your levels.
Weight lifting is bad for you, etc. etc. etc. 


LOL!!!!  This does not to include the BS that’s going on today - getting off topic….didn’t mean to derail my own thread.

Back to gun malfunctions - going to try new mags, different ammo, and will double check my work.  I’m also going to keep those mags loaded but one or two shy of full capacity.


Edited by Retired_LEO - Sep 03 2022 at 4:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sawbones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2022 at 4:26pm
Front sight Issue:
I have that problem also:  blurred front sight.
Remedy:  Perfectly sharp front sight image wearing my computer glasses!  If ya don't have a pair have your eye doctor write a 'scrip for a pair.  Or better yet get 'em on Amazon; if they don't work send 'em back.
"I think youngsters need to start thinking about what kind of world they will leave for me and Keith Richards". Willie Nelson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Retired_LEO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2022 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by Sawbones Sawbones wrote:

Front sight Issue:
I have that problem also:  blurred front sight.
Remedy:  Perfectly sharp front sight image wearing my computer glasses!  If ya don't have a pair have your eye doctor write a 'scrip for a pair.  Or better yet get 'em on Amazon; if they don't work send 'em back.

Unfortunately if I need the gun, I won’t have time to get the glasses on.  I do wear progressive lens glasses but probably won’t be wearing them if the SHTF.  The goal is for me to get outta bed, react and get ahold of the carbine and ready it within seconds.

I also must add, I shoot long guns with my non dominant eye as I am right handed but left eye dominant.  I’ve gotta add some white paint or nail polish to that front post.  

I shoot pistols right handed but sight with my dominant left eye - that has not been a problem.

Working around handicaps, testing gear and practice.  That’s the mission.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2022 at 4:51pm
A little aside on Armscor. I decided to perform my own semi-scientific test. I grabbed a box of Armscor and a box of Fiocchi.

I weighed each round of Armscor. The weights ranged from 200.1 to 200.5 grains, which is almost a 1/2 grain spread. I weighed the Fiocchi at a pretty constant 190.1 grains, never varied over a tenth of a grain. Was the variance in either case the brass, bullet or powder?

Will the variance in the Armscor matter….is it dangerous, don’t know. I was looking for something like a grain in variance to be concerned about. One thing it does demonstrate (I think) is quality control. If an additional powder charge in the Armscor is the component that weighs almost 1/2-grain, that might be a cause for concern? 

The different weights between the two brands is not alarming. The charge recipes among manufacturers might vary in weight. I was just comparing apples to apples and it seems very apparent to me that quality control between these two particular manufacturers varies.

I probably won’t be too concerned about a .4 grain variance, but I plan to weigh every round of Armscor I have to see if I can discover one seriously out of whack.
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sawbones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2022 at 4:52pm
"Right handed, left eye dominant"
Same here but I trained around that. 
Keep your computer glasses on your carbine.
Price of ammo ain't gonna get any cheaper.  Likely get higher by far.  Might consider re-loading your own.  Once you've accumulated brass, the only cost is a 15 cent bullet, a dime primer and a coupla-3 pennies for powder.  After reloading a coupla hunnerd rounds the reload dies/scale etc. is paid for by savings.  Plenty experts this forum to give advice.Then you can afford to plink.  Right Rebel92?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote DonFlynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2022 at 5:36pm
Anyone not wanting to use Armscor .30 Carbine ammo I'll gladly pay you what you paid for it plus shipping. I bought 4000 rounds of it right before the 2020 Covid panic at $12 bucks a box of 50 and have shot 3000 rounds of it since with no issues. Right now I've 1000 rounds plus 1000 rounds Korean surplus as my total .30 Carbine stash for 9 Carbines.

As to the OP making his Carbine "home defense reliable" my suggestion is changing the recoil spring, and rebuilding the bolt with new springs, firing pin and such. I've done that every USGI or used commercial Carbine I've bought the past few years and that's improved reliability on each. I took my "shooter" USGI Inland to the range this week and ran 150 rounds Armscor without missing a beat. Similar results 2-3 weeks ago with another USGI spec Carbine (It's known as the Howachester here) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2022 at 5:52pm
I only have like 150 rounds of the stuff Don. I doubt it’s going to blow-up, but you never know when that over charged round might show up. I’ve personally had experiences with guns blowing apart from a wildly charged commercial round. Not carbines, but two handguns and neither case was pretty.

I am going to sort thru what I have to make sure I don’t have that one crazy round. If their quality control is as far off as I suggested, I want to be sure it’s not off far enough to cause a problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sawbones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2022 at 5:52pm
"Anyone not wanting to use Armscor .30 Carbine ammo I'll gladly pay you what you paid for it plus shipping."

Well, Retired_LEO, looks like you can recoup your five hunnerd bucks for the Amscor hosing you got!  Ain't America great!!??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonFlynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2022 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by Sawbones Sawbones wrote:

"Anyone not wanting to use Armscor .30 Carbine ammo I'll gladly pay you what you paid for it plus shipping."

Well, Retired_LEO, looks like you can recoup your five hunnerd bucks for the Amscor hosing you got!  Ain't America great!!??

Not at that price, he can keep it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote DonFlynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 03 2022 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

I only have like 150 rounds of the stuff Don. I doubt it’s going to blow-up, but you never know when that over charged round might show up. I’ve personally had experiences with guns blowing apart from a wildly charged commercial round. Not carbines, but two handguns and neither case was pretty.

I am going to sort thru what I have to make sure I don’t have that one crazy round. If their quality control is as far off as I suggested, I want to be sure it’s not off far enough to cause a problem.

I've had the same happen decades ago with Remington 9mm and a Baby Eagle, I can understand being leery on an ammo brand 
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As much as I love my carbines, for a home defense weapon, and with needing glasses like myself, I rely on a pump action shotgun loaded with #6 shot.  Yup, it will make a mess of someone in my house but I’m not keeping someone off my property in the middle of night from 50-100 yards away, only if they enter my door.  

I’ve had good luck with PPU .30 carbine ammo.  And S&B soft point.  I also keep a few new packs of Wolff spring sets to replace when I pick a new carbine up.   I replace all springs and label which carbine they come out of and store them just for nostalgia.  I was having a failure to feed issue similar to yours with one magazine I picked up at a show.  Upon taking it apart to replace the spring I noticed someone had taken it apart at some point and put the spring in the wrong way, it caused all kinds of feeding issues.  Usually with the first round.   

Keep checking this site, the guys one here have more knowledge on carbines and parts than I will ever know.  This site is a great resource. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Retired_LEO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 04 2022 at 2:11am
Originally posted by DonFlynn DonFlynn wrote:

Anyone not wanting to use Armscor .30 Carbine ammo I'll gladly pay you what you paid for it plus shipping. 

I might take you up on that because I only have the one carbine that belonged to my dad.  If I destroyed it, I’d be pretty nauseated.  I just can’t use that ammo in it.  I’ll contact you about getting rid of the stuff.  No rush.

It’s also tough to say what the best thing to grab is if somebody’s trying to break in.  Yeah, probably a shotgun is better.  

Most likely, out of instinct I’d go for my Glock .45 caliber that I also have within reach.

Let’s put it this way - I want every gun I own, even the carbine, ready to rock when I need it.  They’re all locked up but when I grab ‘em they’ve got to be ready to go within seconds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Retired_LEO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 04 2022 at 2:16am
Originally posted by Beezer Beezer wrote:

…….I was having a failure to feed issue similar to yours with one magazine I picked up at a show.  Upon taking it apart to replace the spring I noticed someone had taken it apart at some point and put the spring in the wrong way, it caused all kinds of feeding issues.  Usually with the first round.   

Keep checking this site, the guys one here have more knowledge on carbines and parts than I will ever know.  This site is a great resource. 

I’m sure now that is exactly what happened - I put the damn springs in the magazines in the wrong way.  
The next time the carbine and I get to the range, I’ll give it a thorough check ride!
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