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Possible universal redux

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Forum Name: Commercial Carbines
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URL: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3068
Printed Date: Mar 29 2024 at 1:47am
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Topic: Possible universal redux
Posted By: Sharps40
Subject: Possible universal redux
Date Posted: Aug 22 2017 at 12:41pm
No pics. Everything packed for my household move. Pics soon though.

It's Dry as a bone but with inspection I'm satisfied it's unfired or very nearly so. No carbon or copper in it anywhere.

Single recoil spring and guide mounted to eject side of receiver.

No markings on the square barrel from slide movement

Cast mil style slide with mil lock. No wear marks or bluing loss. This is the full-u shaped slide.

Late spring loaded firing pin and bolt. No brass or hammer marks. No wear. Slight bluing loss from rotation and movement.

Perfect bore no copper fouling.

One ding on stock. No other marks

Buttplate pristine blueing, obviously never grounded.

Military gas piston and nut- no single shot provision

There is no "US" marking on the right rear of the receiver

SN 398240


Sling and oiler

300 yd rear peep.

Factory drilled for side scope, plastic filer still there.

No marks on screws

Metal forend cover is perfect.

Box and all factory papers. Box markings include SN, model 1000, dynamic merchandise inc. and accessories ad in the box is dated late 1979.

Plastic 4 rd mag is cracked but I'll get metal mags. How ever no marks to indicate the mag was ever used

I'm pleased with it so far.

I have not fired it yet.


Comments?   Might it be a redux?



Replies:
Posted By: sleeplessnashadow
Date Posted: Aug 22 2017 at 5:07pm
Hi

Yes, it's a carbine made by Universal Firearms so the parts are compatible with surplus GI parts and parts from other carbines that stuck to the standard. Not one of their hybrids they made from s/n 100k on.

These were made for police agencies that wanted carbines compatible with the others they trained with, used or had over the years. Sometimes orders/quantities changed and some of them were sold to civilians.

It's one of the ones I've called Universal Redux. Not all had the single recoil spring. Not all had the bolt with internal firing pin. They were "made to order" for whatever agency was buying them.

Your's has the highest s/n I've seen or heard of so far. The next highest is 398102. Based on the other serial numbers just before and after this one and the info I have on their sales dates it was probably made in 1978.

All of the receivers used by Universal were milled from forged steel. Typically there were two things Universal stuck with from current production on these. Their front sight with set screw and aluminum trigger housing in use at the time. Should be the reactangular one with the rectangle cut in the stock.

A rare Universal carbine with most of it compatible with GI parts.

Jim


Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Aug 22 2017 at 5:25pm
For curiosity sake. The revised bolt will retro to a USGI receiver...but will a GI bolt cross to this particular Universal receiver, or was there a point at which Universal abandoned the bridge recess-cut altogether?


Posted By: Sharps40
Date Posted: Aug 22 2017 at 5:54pm
Thanks Mr Jim. I need to find a mag but that'll wait a bit. We settle on the retirement house Friday. Once I unpack I can detail photograph and get it on range. Some might not shoot it due to rarity but I done expect it's a powerball jackpot either. So I think I'll just enjoy it. Later let me know if any pics of paperwork scans will help your research. I seem to have a full set and a ruff but complete box....been a busy week packin and bidding on this one before the move and then getting it shipped in under the moving date.   It'll be a good break to clean and shoot it soon


Posted By: sleeplessnashadow
Date Posted: Aug 22 2017 at 10:35pm
Thanks Floyd, for reminding me I need to clarify a few things.

When I say compatible with most GI parts I need to add, this depends on a number of things besides the part name.

Commercial carbines are replicas of the originals. The degree with which they copy the originals varied/varies from one manufacturer to the next and sometimes varied at a given time in production over the years. While a part may appear to be interchangeable it may not be based on minor dimensional changes. Carbines by commercial companies Auto Ordnance and Inland Mfg are excellent cases in point. Many parts are close with some being interchangeable with original GI parts varying from one carbine to the next.

In the case of the carbine in question, the Universal Firearms "redux", since they were made to order carbines and were made for more than one order they require inspection of the particular carbine to see what was done to GI specs or Universal Firearms specs (which varied over time).

More to the point to Floyd's curiosity and question.....

Somewhere in the vicinty of s/n 186,000 Universal introduced a bolt having an internal firing pin such as the one Sharps40 described. These bolts became their standard thru end of production in the vicinty of s/n 498,000+.

The Universal bolt eliminated the GI style firing pin and replcased it with a firing pin within the bolt that was held to the rear and away from primers by use of a strong spring tapered to fit the forward end of the firing pin. The firing pin itself was enclosed within the bolt. The tang common to the GI firing pin design was eliminated.

The firing pin tang at the rear of the GI firing pin was designed to engage a machine cut in the receiver bridge (crossed the bottom of the receiver about the mid point) and hold the firing pin in the rear of the bolt until the bolt fully rotated and locked. The angle of the receiver bridge cut allowed the release of the firing pin at a specific point in bolt rotation determined by the angle of the cut in the receiver bridge and the machining of the firing pin tang. This was a safety design to prevent the firing pin from striking the primer before it was safe to do so. The GI design is known as a floating firing pin and was also used in the M1 Garand and M14.

The design Universal changed too has been an industry wide accepted means of preventing the firing pin from striking the primer in a centerfire semi-auto rifle requiring a locked bolt before bullet discharge. For various legitimate reasons the U.S. Military preferred the floating firing pin over other designs. Both designs have their strengths and weaknesses.

In changing the design of the firing pin Universal also changed the design of the bolt. GI firing pins will not fit in this bolt. The extractor and ejector with their springs will work in the redesigned Universal bolt.

Eliminating the firing pin tang also eliminated the need for the machined cut in the rear of the receiver bridge. As a result the GI bolts or a bolt that uses the GI design will not function in carbines made by Universal that do not have the cut in the rear of the receiver bridge. By not making the cut the GI firing pin will not be allowed to move forward to strike the primer and the bolt will fail to fully rotate and lock.

The Universal bolt will function in a GI receiver (as with introducing any replacement carbine bolt, GI included, the headspace should be checked to make sure it remains within specs related to safety).

Universal carbines up to about s/n 186,000 have that cut along with a GI style firing pin and bolt. So this doesn't apply to all carbines made by Universal.

A note now on that cut in the rear of the receiver bridge. The dimensions of the cut are fairly critical. If not to spec it may defeat the intent of the design to hold the firing pin in the rear of the bolt. Over the years many of the commercial carbine manufacturers have failed to consistently make this cut to spec. A few failed to do this on all the carbines they produced. As a result commercial carbines should be checked to make sure the firing pin is helf back until the bolt fully rotates and locks. It's part of an initial safety inspection before firing that includes checking the headspace.

The change in design by Universal included another change. A notch was machined in the side of the bolt towards the rear. A lever was added to their carbines that would engage this notch and lock the bolt open and slide to the rear. The notch does not affect the performance of the bolt. However, should someone attempt to put a GI spec bolt into a Universal carbine having this lever (right side extreior of receiver, sometimes with a small ball on top) it won't fit. So the issue of the no bridge cut becomes moot. If a Universal Firearms carbine has this lever it will also have the notch in the bolt and the bolt with the internal firing pin. The design changes were made at the same time.

For the question as to whether or not a GI bolt will fit in the Universal "redux" carbine depends on the "made to order" design of the particular order the carbine was made for. For a quick check that should be followed by a closer examination if the cut is present, look at the receiver bridge and see if the rear runs straight across or has a warped U shaped machine cut. If it has the bolt with internal firing pin it probably doesn't have the cut in the receiver bridge. But since it's been owned by one or more owners since it was made in 1978 the potential exists for someone to have swapped the original bolt out and replacing it with another.

If I missed something here the idea has been the general concept, not an exact description of all the little nuances to these parts.

When I indicate most of the parts of a particular carbine are compatible with a GI carbine the word "most" is meant to convey that each part this is attempted with it may or may not be so should be examined closely. In addition to the obvious parts that won't interchange like the trigger housing pin of the aluminum trigger housing, front sight held in place by a set screw, etc.

Replacing the stock with a GI stock requires also changing the trigger housing or altering the stock to fit.

Many people are critical of the commercially manufactured carbines abd particularly those made by Universal Firearms for some of the reasons above. What they compare them too as the standard is the GI carbine and their specs. This comparison is natural but the commercial carbines are replicas. In spite of all the claims to the contrary I've seen only one manufacturer who has truly made their carbines and all it's parts to GI specs. At a retail cost inline with this level of workmanship. Fulton Armory.

At the same time commercial manufacturers have collectively produced more than 1 million .30 caliber carbine replicas since 1960 with almost half of them being made by Universal firearms over 22 years.

This "redux" carbine was custom built to some degree based on the customers preferences. I've owned them and had a close look at what was done but the ones I examined may be or were different from this one. One of the others still had the twin recoil springs. With a GI design bolt and slide.

Jim



Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Aug 23 2017 at 6:12am
I suppose it's debatable as to whether-or-not the revised Universal bolt design was an improvement, but we know that design has been and still is used today in untold numbers of firearms. I've often considered picking one up and they do occasionally become available. I have experienced a slam-fire and it wasn't pretty. Had I not had that particular weapon pointed down-range and muzzle-down when I released the bolt, I may have shot a friend that day. The irony is that the weapon in question was equipped with a spring-retained firing-pin. If one ever experiences a slam-fire and is lucky enough not to be injured, or injure someone in the vicinity, he becomes very conscious of possible ways to prevent it.


Posted By: Sharps40
Date Posted: Aug 23 2017 at 11:19am
I'll check the receiver for the firing pin cut.    But I suspect this one will not have it.   There is no "US" marking on the right rear of the receiver


Posted By: Sharps40
Date Posted: Aug 23 2017 at 6:42pm
Well. No cherry anymore. Fired three.   All is well.


Posted By: Sharps40
Date Posted: Sep 04 2017 at 2:28pm
finally got moved.   Internet soon and then some photos.   Stuck with a blackberry for now.   But got unpacked enough to locate the cleaning supplies.   With a cleaning and grease it functions smooth as silk.   


Posted By: Sharps40
Date Posted: Sep 08 2017 at 2:18pm
so. Upon cleaning and inspection the receiver has an un cut firing pin block.   Seems the only thing between the rifle and accepting a military bolt is accurately making the indent for the tail of the pin. 


Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Sep 09 2017 at 8:12am
I'd just be looking for a spare late-model bolt, they turn up now-n-then. Probably the only advantage one would gain by modifying the receiver bridge would be the capability to install a hard GI bolt with a much longer service life. It's not likely wise to have the bridge cut for the FP block and I think the reason Universal changed the design was to avoid relying on that cut, which most commercial manufactures never got right. There are even two distinct versions on that cut among GI carbines. There is nothing wrong with a spring-retained FP system. It's been used for eons and is still in use today.

I'm wondering if the spring-retained system could be carried-over to a GI bolt. Universal pins and springs also show-up, but I don't know the dimensional differences between the two. Maybe someone here does. I think I know who to ask.


Posted By: Sharps40
Date Posted: Sep 09 2017 at 8:29am
yep. Not planning to cut this one. Given its brand new I suspect it'll last more than a lifetime.   Universals were good rifles. Most of the negatives touted for them are rather spurious.  


Posted By: sleeplessnashadow
Date Posted: Sep 10 2017 at 9:19am
Hi guys

The bolt designed and used by Universal having the internal firing pin is of the same outward dimensions as the GI bolt. I haven't tried one in a GI carbine as I don't wanna find out the hard way that something is different. I'm not a gunsmith or a machinist. Beyond my abilities.

The later carbine designed by Universal had parts designed for that carbine. Not for a GI carbine. So mixing and matching I figure isn't a real good idea. Even if something worked it may not continue to do so.

One thing true of all commercial bolts I've tested and used in the various trials of the commercial carbines from every commercial manufacturer is the rear of the bolt wasn't hardened to GI spec. GI spec was for the bolt to be hardened to RC 38-43 with the rear of the bolt receiving a second hardening of 48-54. Commercial bolts, if hardened correctly the first time, have been 38-43 front to rear with no second hardening of the rear.

Where this becomes important is the repeated impact the rear of the bolt receives from the hammer. If the hammer is a GI hammer the lifespan of the rear of a commercial bolt is less than what it would be with the hammer built to go with the commercial bolt. I've said throughout the websites and forums the rear of commercial bolts need to be inspected periodically to make sure the design hasn't been deformed from repeated hits of the hammer. Whether the hammer is GI or commercial. With used guns there is no way of knowing what part was original vs a replacement or swapped around between carbines.

The design of the rear of the bolt is a safety feature to prevent the hammer from striking the firing pin until the bolt has rotated and locked. Universal Firearms retained that design.

An FYI regarding the receiver bridge of a Universal Firearms carbine. Universal machined their receivers from forged steel billets. When machining was complete and the markings added they then hardened their receivers before bluing. GI spec for receivers was/is RC 38-45. All of the Universal receivers I've tested have been in the 42-45 range. With the exception of a few having the markings of Jacksonville, AR after Universal was closed in 1984 and relocated there.

Sticking with the receivers made in Hialeah, FL, unless one knows what they're doing I wouldn't recommend machining a hardened receiver bridge to accommodate a GI firing pin tang. I recommend using the bolt the receiver was designed for.

The one drawback to owning a Universal Firearms hybrid carbine with a s/n above 100k is replacement parts. Generally if it looks like an M1 carbine people inevitably try to use GI parts or parts made to GI spec. Unless one knows what they're doing this isn't a good idea. Particularly with the more critical parts such as the bolt.

A question we should ask ourselves is, at what point is a "carbine" no longer an "M1 Carbine"? Universal dropped the U.S. from U.S. Carbine about 1966 just before s/n 88,000. Why is a long story and not relevant to this question. Or is it? While Universal changed the design or a number of parts prior to s/n 100k with the introduction of their hybrid at s/n 100k in 1967 the majority of parts thereafter were no longer compatible with GI parts. While it looked similar and fired the same ammo that doesn't make it an "M1 Carbine" (more correctly: "Carbine Caliber .30, M1")

That "Model M1" was the designation given the carbine designed by Winchester and accepted by Ordnance to eventually become the U.S. Carbines manufactured under contracts to U.S. Army Ordnance from 1942-1945. The carbines designed by Universal Firearms having s/n 100k and higher were chambered for the .30 caliber carbine cartridge as were a number of other firearms.

Saying a Universal Firearms carbine having a s/n 100k and higher is an "M1 Carbine" is kinda like the lead-ins in a movie that say "based on a true story". While the true story was the basis for the movie the movie usually has very little in common with the true story. Where we humans have difficulty is comprehending the difference between the real story and the movie. For many the movie becomes what's remembered as the "true" story.

Jim


Posted By: Sharps40
Date Posted: Oct 04 2017 at 8:45am
this thing is a great shooter.   Trigger sucks but tula ammo is right on the sights at 100 marking.   Very reliable with the 15 Rd promags too. Over all I'm quite happy and the price was excellent.   Reminds me of how much fun my Universal was when I was a young man.  


Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Oct 05 2017 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by Sharps40 Sharps40 wrote:

this thing is a great shooter.   Trigger sucks but tula ammo is right on the sights at 100 marking.   Very reliable with the 15 Rd promags too. Over all I'm quite happy and the price was excellent.   Reminds me of how much fun my Universal was when I was a young man.  


Do a little self-research on Tula and formulate your own opinion. Most say the steel case ammo is not recommended due to the case itself and the finish applied to the case. You can get it for a few $ less, but one stuck case can ruin your day.


Posted By: Sharps40
Date Posted: Oct 05 2017 at 8:50pm
it's what's in the store. If ine sticks it can be unstuck.  No worries



Posted By: Crusader_6
Date Posted: Jun 03 2020 at 11:38pm
Hi everyone! It is nice to finally see a thread with someone talking about an Universal Carbine same
As mine. Mine is an Universal Redux s/n 355622. I was wondering if an USGI wooden handguard would fit on it, as I really do not like the metal handguard it has. Also, I would like to add the band with a bayonet lug. Would an USGI fit my Redux ?I would really appreciate any input. 

Regards, 

Ruben


Posted By: sleeplessnashadow
Date Posted: Jun 04 2020 at 12:54am
Hi Ruben

It should be able to work with a GI handguard and barrel band. I can't guarantee it but the one I had they did.

GI barrel bands should be able to work with any Universal that has a GI "style" barrel band vs. the one used with the Monte Carlo stocks.

A GI handguard on a Universal depends on the barrel. The dimensions of the barrels used by Universal changed over time. Those with the square gas block tend not to accept a GI handguard without modification to the handguard. However, yours should have the gas piston cylinder, not the gas block. Those barrels have been able to accept a GI handguard.

Jim


Posted By: sleeplessnashadow
Date Posted: Jun 05 2020 at 2:28am
Narrative and a couple pics added to clarify the cut in the rear of the receiver bridge.

http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_universal4.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_universal4.html


Posted By: 03manV
Date Posted: Jun 05 2020 at 8:22am
Originally posted by sleeplessnashadow sleeplessnashadow wrote:

Hi Ruben

It should be able to work with a GI handguard and barrel band. I can't guarantee it but the one I had they did.

GI barrel bands should be able to work with any Universal that has a GI "style" barrel band vs. the one used with the Monte Carlo stocks.

A GI handguard on a Universal depends on the barrel. The dimensions of the barrels used by Universal changed over time. Those with the square gas block tend not to accept a GI handguard without modification to the handguard. However, yours should have the gas piston cylinder, not the gas block. Those barrels have been able to accept a GI handguard.

Jim

As you say above, Universal stopped contouring the top of the barrel at some point, I believe it was when they went to the metal handguard. 
A GI handguard won't work on these and later barrels, unless some wood is removed from inside the handguard- above the rear, larger portion of the barrel. This mod does not require too much skill or effort if someone wants a wooden handguard. Then another problem arises, many of the universal stocks are wider than a GI stock, and will overhang the narrower GI handguard.

Some Universal wooden handguards are also cut "larger" in the same inside area.

Sorry I can't help with serial or time line data; as these are "observations" from handling/repairing a few Universals over the years.


-------------
Don


Posted By: Sharps40
Date Posted: Nov 08 2021 at 5:40am
Reviving an old thread....


I'm thinking of selling this redux but not sure how to price it fairly......could use some advice.



I use it. I've fired it/hunted with it. It has the feed ramp polished and a 11 Degree target crown. Runs great on full power ammo, weaker Tulammo sometimes failes to eject but mostly runs fine too.

Rifle with scope and mount, sling, 3 each 5 round magazines (one original, 2 new promag), 2 each 10 round magazines (new promag), 4 each 15 round magazines (new promag), one mag pouch.   Original box and papers too.


Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Nov 08 2021 at 6:39am
I would suggest it be priced in the area of any other run-of-the-mil Universal on various auction sites. I doubt if anyone interested in purchasing a Universal is going to be aware or interested in the differences between the generations and a redux.   


Posted By: Sharps40
Date Posted: Nov 08 2021 at 6:57am
copy.  It's why I asked.  Current auctions are 400 to 1300+ with no evident differences between auctions


Posted By: floydthecat
Date Posted: Nov 08 2021 at 8:25am
I agree, selling prices seem to be all over the place and it might get down to some buyers being aware of the differences in generations. Get an gen-1 (earlier the better) and you will have a decent carbine somewhat (and early enough completely) compatible with USGI components and that version will sell at a premium to later generations. The redux falls in the category of being somewhat compatible depending on what Universal decided to do that day. The redux is obviously rare, but is it valuable enough to command a premium because it might have a couple of features that make it better than a gen-3 or 4?



Posted By: sleeplessnashadow
Date Posted: Nov 08 2021 at 9:42am
Your carbine is a good example of the problem with the "generations" approach to separating one Universal from another. Whatever defines one generation from another doesn't apply to this carbine.

Just a suggestion, avoid giving it a generation. It will avoid confusion.

Point out in the listing that it has a GI style slide with single recoil spring but some of the features of the later carbines. Those redux carbines were not made for retail sales. They were made for police agencies and governments that wanted something that disassembled/reassembled like the GI M1 carbines. OKay to add this tidbit to the listing.

If you have a headspace gauge checking the headspace to make sure it's within spec would be a bonus to any buyer. Especially one who knows how important headspace is.

With all those magazines and the scope I'm guessing you should get about $800 for it but it's just a guess. As noted, prices are all over the map.

Jim


Posted By: sleeplessnashadow
Date Posted: Nov 11 2021 at 3:36am
Sharps40,

Just a suggestion and posted here for all to see as not all are aware of this.

https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/915834245" rel="nofollow - https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/915834245

Photographs sell your carbine. They are a "hook" that will also get people to read the description. Don't rely on them to ask for more as many will just glance and move on.

You did a good job of cleaning the carbine before taking pics. Many are too lazy as they are selling it, not maintaining it. Which may be a clue as to the mindset of the owner. A clean carbine shows that good to great condition. A dirty one hides bad condition but also hides great condition. We're talking higher bids.

Those are pretty basic things. Knowing what you have and what you are showing here's a few suggestions:

Accessories:
- those magazines ... add at least one pic of everything together with the carbine. Mags, ammo, cleaning kit, whatever is included. Mags cost $ so they up the value.

Stock:
The three areas most likely to crack on a carbine stock are something to take pics of and share. Doesn't require a bunch of pics, just one of each.

  • area behind and around the recoil plate
  • area around the recoil plate screw nut between the trigger housing and handgrip
  • area around the inset in the stock for the barrel band spring

    Receiver
    A couple pics showing the condition of the bluing/finish - usually a pic or two of the markings can do this.

    Barrel
    Your pic of the underside of the barrel is good. Add a pic or two showing the barrel finish. A pic of the front sight with the first 4-6" of the barrel is a good one. One right side, one left side. Adding one of the top and bottom is even better.

    That's a nice looking carbine in great condition. Many that old don't look near as good.

    This isn't comprehensive, just a few suggestions.

    Jim










  • Posted By: Sharps40
    Date Posted: Nov 15 2021 at 11:14am
    Thanks.   I'll have to wipe it down and clean again.....shot another deer, so the bore and the grease on the barrel/slide will be dirty and i suspect they'll be some more woods bits in there from tracking.



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