I'd could use some help with some of the details requested on the data sheet and a few of my own.

This is a Saginaw carbine. 

Keyway  I  ?

Key retention Chisel ?

Key Staking None ?

To me this looks Parkerized although worn.

It also looks to me like there may have been a type III barrel band at one time.  Yes?

If so, then the key and and front sight must have been removed and reinstalled. 

Last question is whether the C on the sight is an ink stamp or just a mark that looks like a C?

While we're looking at barrel bands.  The current one has perfect bluing which raises the question in my mind whether its new (reproduction), or old stock, possibly refinished. 

??

On the right lug of the bolt there is an interesting mark. Is this 'hieroglyphics'? 

Two questions in the trigger housing group.

What is the "hammer spring recess"?

Here?

 On the 2nd sheet there is a question about the piston nut staking.

Are the two rectangular marks  the original staking?

(about 1 and 5 o'clock as the photo is oriented.)

Is that an SG bolt?

the hammer spring recess is where the spring goes in, Unless you have a very early Inland TH you will have the recess.

One of out members made soem videos in small sections to assist in filling out a datasheet. They can be found in

Safety/ Accuracy/Shooting/Ammunition/Care and Maintenance section

Direct link

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/how-to-videos-and-links_topic1084.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/how-to-videos-and-links_topic1084.html

the second sheet is if it is a mostly original carbine, but it is good for personal records.

As always you can ask here and will get an answer.

New2brass wrote: Is that an SG bolt?

Yes. 

Understand all my answers are assuming the part markings are legit.

New2brass wrote: the hammer spring recess is where the spring goes in, Unless you have a very early Inland TH you will have the recess.

Thanks! 

Thats exactly what I'm seeing but didn't see examples of anything different in the videos or the instructables page.  I also looked through Kuhnhausen.

Thanks JackP.

  Definately has the recess and the plunger I'll have to look at again to see if blued down the length.

I don't think it is.  Just the head that goes into the hammer recess.

The bell hieroglyphic has been reported on some SG bolts.

Matt_X wrote: Thats exactly what I'm seeing but didn't see examples of anything different in the videos or the instructables page.  I also looked through Kuhnhausen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9g6Hp7XyJM" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9g6Hp7XyJM at the 5 minute mark explains the hammer pin recess. All carbines have the pin.

Basically early on they did not machine the recess. The spring would move around when trying to assemble. the fix was to make a recess to hold the spring

Matt_X wrote: Well let me ask then! I could really use some help in getting a better idea if this is a "mostly original" carbine. Other than the barrel band it all looks original to me. I know the gun was purchased from Norman Ismari, a gunsmith and FFL, in 2013. He almost certainly made the muzzle wear and headspace checks on the previous owner's data sheet.  This is non-CC data sheet from someone or organization that must deal with a fair number of M1 carbines.  I can post it if that will be of some help.

the club has had several variations of datasheets in out 40 plus years.

there were a few now defunct groups that had a form of a datasheet

If it has "appendix J" at the top it is from the Riesch book

Post a picture of the datasheet and it will be a good start fro us to ask for pictures for clarification.

Your barrel band is a  reproduction and it is clear it once wore a type 3 barrel band

A great many carbines have been corrected. So beyond having the correct parts there are other things to that may help to figure if original or put back together.

I am sure someone will ask to see the rear sight and the stake marks.

A couple things about this data sheet I was given with the carbine that are different than what I see.

The trigger housing is listed as Type III Stamped.

I don't see any evidence of stamped plates being brazed together. 

The magazine catch is listed as Type III.

Based on the typology here: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/triggergroup4.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/triggergroup4.html

I'd call it type 2 smooth.

On the CC data sheet I have it as version number 3.

I don't know if these are just mistakes (mine or theirs) or clues that parts were mixed or changed.

The other inconsistancy is the stock and hand guard.  The handguard surface is shellacked but stock is linseed oil or similar.  In my intro another member suggested that it was restocked.  I don't know if that's a definate or whether Saginaw was sometimes using Grand Rapids stocks.  But I'll throw that out here to give a fuller picture.

New2brass.  Thanks.

If its unwise to put this much info up on the web, I can revise.

Simpson (the dealer I bought from) said this sheet came to them with the carbine.  By the time I saw it for sale, the price had already been lowered but best I can tell they started lower than the value estimated on the data sheet.  

That is one of the problems with al the different systems.

Larry Ruth is a long time club member and contributor. Just the same there are many items in his book credited to the club.

His system is different than what the club uses.

Fast forward, the club in keeping up with the times shifts from a newsletter to an online format.

One of the issues that caused consternation among the members was the web page use of some of the Reisch system. The reason for this is all the people out there familiar with that terminology. The downside is that the Reisch system has inadequacy  on some items, especially absent pictures.

An example is a statement "my mag catch has an M on it" Well is is underlined? Is the M serifed?

Another issue is the slide system, it misses some minutia which helps nail down items to a finer degree.

With our data sheet one can disregard the numbers and look at the picture to decide what what is correct for what they have.

Here is a link to a slide cross reference

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/operating-slide-chart_topic1140.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/operating-slide-chart_topic1140.html

notice there are two type 2 slides which the club has E168 or E169.

If you had a NPM slide you would be scratching your head as it is a type2/4 but in CC it would be an E368 which is not represented on that page.

Also look at the post by Sleeplessnashadow, the man that brought the web pages to life.

 We are working on pages dedicated to the more advance aspects of the carbine and filling out a data sheet.

Hope you are enjoying the carbine insanity!

Thanks. I was trying to limit the insanity by starting with Ruth & Duff, and Ruth's Design & Production books.  So much for plan A. LOL.

I did find this thread which was very helpful with some of the page 2 questions

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/carbine-club-datasheet-question_topic2895_page1.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/carbine-club-datasheet-question_topic2895_page1.html

My receiver has the 33 degree cut and the notch for helping with bolt removal.

Ever see the cone type ejector in SG bolts?  Just wondering since the CC webspage mentions its only seen with a few manufacturers.

I don't see any staking although the sight itself has been hit.

03manV wrote: Your rear sight pin has the circular staking, on each side.

I agree.

I think new2brass was asking about evidence of a later sight having been removed from the dovetail cut.

There was slight shift in focus to determing how much of this carbine has been altered or changed to parts representative of a '43 build.    Knowing that will help insure my datasheet isn't misleading.

For reference to the observations below.

Here's another view of the possible cartouche near the comb.

I don't know what to make of it.

While we're looking at stock marks, here's a photo of the  P.

Around the muzzle on the barrel I see no marks but am sure the sight has been removed and reinstalled.  

The rubber muzzle cover or cap came with the gun.  Someplace I read that there were rubber shoot-off  caps that came into use after the canvas covers.  Unfortunately I can't find that reference now.  There are Bavarian plastic covers for sale at www.libertytreecollectors.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=8061

But this one looks very much like the ones sold as reproduction Mauser K98 covers. 

Finally, the rear sight.  I can't see if the bash continues underneath.  Clearly the sight has been been hit with a punch on the left.  Also its sitting to the right of center; my guess is this is not a correction and the bullet's point of impact will be to the right.  That's going to have to wait untit I can take it to shoot - preferable at a place with a 50 or 100 yd range. 

Lots to learn that's for sure.

We keep coming up with more questions.

Why would the barrel and reciever have a type 1 rear sight and a evidence of a type III barrel band?

Why would the bolt have an unmodified type 1 firing pin if the carbine had any of the later updates?

And if this carbine was assembled to look correct for a '43 build, why an S'G' stamped stock instead of an SG?  

Nothing mysterious, guys have been messing with carbines for over 70 years!

The rear sight has very likely been changed, it has been "on and off", in one of your pictures you can see bright marks where it was moved; you mentioned the punch marks your self. It is really banged up compared with the rest of the carbine.

The T3 band was also removed, as you said the front sight has been off.

No one ever changed the firing pin, or put the wrong one in the bolt when "correcting" it.

"They" did not have a SG stock , or didn't know there was a difference between S'G' and SG!

You really can never explain what you see, could have been done any time or at several different times- by several different people- some maybe even when in govt. ownership. JMHO. ;)

Appears like buttplate impressions in some spots.

I seen markings impressions on a stock we couldn't figure out, then it hit me one day. I stood a 15rd mag on it and the floorplate was a perfect match. Someone had been tapping their loaded mag on to the stock.

Sometimes you'll see pictures of these carbines piled in the back of trucks, looking like a game of pick up sticks. Lots of dents came from the Op slide handles to the carbine next to it.

Thanks guys.  

That all makes sense.

My mistake on the firing pin.  Rereading I see that the change recommendation was Oct 11, '43  - month's after the extractor change. 

With the flip sight's broken leaf and apparent misalignment, I'll take it off and disassemble when I get a sight pusher. 

I disassembled and cleaned the bolt and trigger housing.  There was a bit of old grease in there so it had to be done.  That was my excuse to explore further.

What does this 61 stamp on the sear represent? 

 

And what is going on with the finish on the hammer?  

The colors are shifted a little in the photo but you can see it's mottled blackish and gray-greenish.

Why Carbines? wrote: The sear looks to be a BI or B1

Yes, either of those is also possible.

Dan mentions seeing B| marked in this post. http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3982&PID=28068&title=b-marked-type-1-sear#28068" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3982&PID=28068&title=b-marked-type-1-sear#28068

At the top of that discussion is a sear  with a distinct B on the top.

B&P Motor Sales Company made sears marked BN for National Postal Meter.

They also made sears marked Bl, BI, and B1 for Inland

the marking is sometimes on top and sometimes on the side