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USN ID’d 1943 Inland

Printed From: The Carbine Collector's Club
Category: The Club
Forum Name: Carbines of the Collectors
Forum Description: Share Your Carbine
URL: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6211
Printed Date: Apr 23 2024 at 5:56am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: USN ID’d 1943 Inland
Posted By: carbinekid
Subject: USN ID’d 1943 Inland
Date Posted: May 24 2022 at 1:37pm
I made an acquisition recently that I’m pretty excited about! In fact I don’t even have the carbine hand yet.

It’s an Inland and appears to have an SG receiver in the 800-900k range. Might seem crazy that I don’t know 100%, but the provided photos show an unmolested carbine with early features and a very intriguing plaque added to the stock. The price was right so I went for it. I know not to buy the story, but after a lengthy discussion with the current owner about its former owner, I was left with no other choice but to buy it. It had to be done, haha.

The plaque says “WILLIAM R. LENNOX, LT. COMDR DE-V(G)”. The owner of the carbine got it from the estate of Mr. Lennox after his death in an airplane crash in the late 1980s. He was a family friend and handled selling off Lennox’s gun collection. After spending the weekend researching on Fold3 and Ancestry I have a pretty good picture of his service. Lennox first served in the Navy from 1930-34 and entered the Naval Reserve as an Ensign. In 1940 he went active again and served until 1946. He was discharged with the rank of Commander and held the rank of Captain while in the Reserves until his ultimate retirement in 1957.

During WWII Lennox served aboard the USS S-38, USS S-31 and finally the USS Croaker. He was acting Captain on the S-38 for a time and then on the S-31 for training duty. His usual role was that of Executive Officer. The S-38 and S-31 are WWI era subs and the Croaker was a modern sub. Reading the war patrol diaries for the S-38 is really something. Sounds like a terrible experience plagued with a sauna like atmosphere 24/7 and constant mechanical failures due to the age of the subs (see the last picture). Still doing research and will be waiting on the National Archives to provide his service records to fill in all the details.

The rank on the plaque aligns with his time as XO on the USS Croaker. It appears he finished his wartime service aboard the Croaker, so that makes sense.

I’ll update this with better pictures once it arrives. 

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/42CFB0B4-2250-4DA5-AFA5-2F409B41E611.jpg
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Replies:
Posted By: Da1Chief
Date Posted: May 24 2022 at 6:47pm
I will remark with just 3 words... Out Freaking Standing....

-------------
Very respectfully,
Da1Chief
DPC,RMC,ITC(SW) USN Retired


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: May 24 2022 at 6:51pm
Looking forward to seeing more pictures.

-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: ncin1911
Date Posted: May 24 2022 at 7:00pm
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

Looking forward to seeing more pictures.

Geek Ditto


Posted By: Donnie
Date Posted: May 25 2022 at 2:12pm
I am madly jealous! Nice score.


Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: May 25 2022 at 2:30pm
I’m hoping to have it this Friday. I’m really pumped. 

In the meantime I’m trying to figure out if there is a way to find supply records for the USS Croaker to pin this carbine down to coming off that sub. I imagine it would be a task only achievable by visiting the national archives in person or maybe those would be records still held by the Navy?


Posted By: Da1Chief
Date Posted: May 25 2022 at 3:25pm
you would probably have to contact the us navy archives in DC to see if they even exist. 

https://www.archives.gov/research/military/navy" rel="nofollow - https://www.archives.gov/research/military/navy



-------------
Very respectfully,
Da1Chief
DPC,RMC,ITC(SW) USN Retired


Posted By: 1st M1 88
Date Posted: May 25 2022 at 3:51pm
Awesome carbine!  Congrats on your score. Looking forward to your other pics.


Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: May 31 2022 at 10:47pm
The carbine came in today. I wasn’t able to pick it up until late this evening, so no detail pics yet. It is pretty much as shown in the original seller provided photos. Only unexpected detractor is a chipped out section behind the recoil plate. The piece of wood is still there. Not sure yet if there was a previous attempt to glue it back in or if that will be up to me. I’m hoping it hasn’t been glued and I can just send it to Rick Borecky and have him do his thing.

Anyway, two quick pictures of the serial number and barrel date.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/B80931F7-90DA-4A5E-9420-6CA70219ECEA.jpg
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/CA2E6EBF-3FFF-491F-807E-30F3F1C94A87.jpg


Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Jun 02 2022 at 12:25am
Started the tear down this evening. Everything looks legit, although in serious need of a good cleaning. I realized that the sling and buttplate both have the same Navy gray painted markings “BEBB”. Not sure yet what the significance of that is.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/94FEBD2F-B02D-4155-9EB8-AB7FCF2129D0.jpg


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Jun 02 2022 at 12:34am
Is there a letter or number stamped on top of the barrel bevel?

-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Jun 02 2022 at 10:12am
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

Is there a letter or number stamped on top of the barrel bevel?

Yeah there is something stamped there. The barreled receiver still needs cleaning. Once it’s taken care of I’ll take detailed pictures of everything.

I need to consult the data sheet index about the stock. It’s marked HI with a flaming bomb in the sling well and to my surprise it has an ink stamped date under the buttplate! Looks like “July 1 1943”.


Posted By: Dave Tennent
Date Posted: Jun 02 2022 at 6:25pm
Here's my Inland built soon after yours. It too has an ink stamp




-------------
Dave


Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Jun 03 2022 at 9:57pm
I finally got all the metal cleaned up. It had definitely been fired and had also picked up a decent amount of surface rusty that is indicative of having spent time in humidity.

WSI marked rear sight with W.I. marked aperture. The barrel has an “A” stamped on the top flat forward of the receiver. 

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/CACD9D22-04EC-4B47-9A19-3CA6C09CC780.jpg
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/13576013-CB4F-4F59-9E8E-92B9193401DA.jpg
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http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/DA87EE31-D329-4632-8365-51C1988FEB48.jpg


Posted By: GotSnlB28
Date Posted: Jun 03 2022 at 10:01pm
Very nice.


Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Jun 03 2022 at 10:04pm
Trigger group parts. Note the machined 45-degree edge on the hammer and bright polished forward surface on the sear. Interesting finish on both pieces. Some kind of splotchy dulite type finish on the hammer and sear as well. 26 coil hammer spring, blued sear spring, bright blued pins.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/A4F7AD58-9BA5-4D4D-8ADD-67B16598EA7D.jpg
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Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Jun 03 2022 at 10:07pm
Bolt and slide. Interesting double stamped markings on the slide.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/76EA1939-9997-42E6-B585-12DEB89EF4C0.jpg
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http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/B320DBAE-BEA7-4A32-AE0D-9770906D0DCF.jpg


Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Jun 03 2022 at 10:08pm
Unmarked late style recoil plate and full threaded recoil plate screw.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/265A0414-6A49-4740-8529-09F64BE8C1A5.jpg


Posted By: Why Carbines?
Date Posted: Jun 04 2022 at 6:52am
Looks very nice! I like the combination of parts it has on it; it's very indicative of where carbine design was at around its production.


Posted By: kro1970
Date Posted: Jun 04 2022 at 9:12am
Notice the 26 coil hammer spring used with a dogleg hammer. This appears often with Inlands in this serial number range.


Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Jun 07 2022 at 9:49pm
Finally got her all put back together this evening. I’m really thrilled with it. The wartime service of the originally owner is really fantastic and I’m still only scratching the surface. With luck the National Archives will come through and get me his complete service records.

Anyway, here it is…

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/B9EBCB5F-5880-4050-8EB5-56AD6604113B.jpg

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/4F3DF757-A851-4B3C-A4EF-BA847C676860.jpg




Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Jun 07 2022 at 9:51pm
The ink stamped date under the buttplate is “July 15 1943”.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/7D1848BB-8F91-4618-BE3A-9E0451C642E3.jpg
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/F9CD4267-6BE3-4917-B749-7BA25F969EA5.jpg


Posted By: ncin1911
Date Posted: Jun 08 2022 at 8:00am
@carbinekid
Fantastic piece of history, that you are now the caretaker of. 

Thought you might find this interesting, if you have not already found it. Indicates the dates Lennox was XO on the Croaker.
William R Lennox 
Executive Officer USS Croaker (SS-246) Dec 1944 - Mar 1945
http://www.fleetorganization.com/subcommandersclassyear6.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.fleetorganization.com/subcommandersclassyear6.html

Wondering if "BEBB" is the last name of the Navy man that was issued the carbine before Lennox acquired it?
There are certainly some WWII Navy veterans with that last name, just from quick searching.

Will be watching to see what else you discover.


Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Jun 08 2022 at 10:01am
Originally posted by ncin1911 ncin1911 wrote:

@carbinekid
Wondering if "BEBB" is the last name of the Navy man that was issued the carbine before Lennox acquired it?
There are certainly some WWII Navy veterans with that last name, just from quick searching.

That’s what I’m thinking is most likely. I need to get ancestry for another month and see what I can find on the muster rolls for the Croaker. I also need to get in touch with someone at the USS Croaker museum and see if they still have any wartime records available. I emailed them last week, but no response so far.


Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Jun 09 2022 at 12:58pm
I did a little photo comparison between this carbine and my other 1943 Inland with a 590k serial number and 5-43 dated barrel. Pretty much twins. Only notable difference is the 590k has an OI Overton made stock.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/40A158A0-CB0C-4BAC-AACB-47DE455968FC.jpg
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/0E70D35A-2AFB-4725-A32A-434137319D86.jpg
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/86459D7C-525A-4AF8-8B25-85E859237E4F.jpg


Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Jun 13 2022 at 10:23pm
Here is a great video clip I found. It shows the USS Croaker and there’s certainly a possibility that William Lennox is shown.

http://archive.org/details/28294SubmarineUSSCroakerAndUSSTunnyMos" rel="nofollow - http://archive.org/details/28294SubmarineUSSCroakerAndUSSTunnyMos


Posted By: Dave Tennent
Date Posted: Jun 14 2022 at 8:12am
A fantastic carbine with a great story to go along with it. A keeper for sure. I would love to see it in person. Thanks for sharing

-------------
Dave


Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Jun 15 2022 at 11:42pm
Another new development. We now have a face to the name. This is his biography from the US Naval Academy yearbook for the class of 1934.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/7FE778C1-F0D9-4A99-8A93-7E9174B779F3.jpg


Posted By: Why Carbines?
Date Posted: Jun 16 2022 at 8:06am
What a whimsically written article...I love it! Sounds like ole Whiskey Bill was a bit of character.


Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Jul 08 2022 at 9:59pm

So the suggestion has been made that the tag on the stock of this carbine was repurposed from a pre-existing tag found aboard the sub. Today I toured the USS Silversides which is the same type of sub as the USS Croaker. I kept an eye peeled for any tags that looked like the one on this carbine. There were tags everywhere that could have been used to make the tag for this carbine. See the attached picture. I don’t know if the sub had an engraving outfit aboard, but one of the sub tenders in Australia and the Philippines surely did. Pretty cool to pin down the likely source of the material for the tag. I also noted that the officers quarters did not have any sort of personal identification tags present on bunks or lockers.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/8D22A172-76BA-4FE0-A62B-3FF92035A4E2.jpg

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/B5DF0416-264D-42DD-B0D6-615FE5176F66.jpg

Also I found out the storage location of the small arms aboard the sub. The seating in the enlisted mess area doubled as ammo and small arms storage. Making use of every inch of space!




Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Jul 28 2022 at 6:14pm
Some more new developments. The book “Submarine Diary” by Rear Admiral Corwin Mendenhall has provided some information on Bill Lennox that fills in some gaps in his early war history.

Lennox served aboard the USS Sculpin starting in April 1941. The sub was part of the Asiatic Fleet based out of the Philippines at the outbreak of the war. The author provided a nice description of him.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/88D40D61-8D05-470E-A663-2D587852E6CE.jpg

A few other notes were sprinkled in and it seems that Lennox was a very likable guy. 

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/7814F5EC-800A-463B-8BE7-16C4615900E1.jpg

This is Christmas 1941.
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/7CA8F6CC-931D-4219-93D1-65FDC654FF43.jpg
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/EBB0F489-91F7-4148-BB0D-A5E085484A58.jpg

1942 started off with a promotion!
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/8C7024EE-26A1-43FB-A252-1AE0FCA665D0.jpg

And the end of his time aboard Sculpin came unexpectedly on January 25, 1942 while in docked in Java. The sub S-38 had a reorganization that resulted in the XO being moved up to CO and required another officer to be brought aboard. On the day of his transfer the S-38 departed Java to begin her 2nd war patrol.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/35B52A5B-C4E3-421D-A24F-BBE834D81E2E.jpg


Posted By: M1Dude
Date Posted: Sep 21 2022 at 2:48pm
Wow...I'm speechless.  What a fantastic Carbine, congrats on a great pick up.


Posted By: thirtyround
Date Posted: Sep 21 2022 at 6:53pm
All WW2 Naval vessels and submarines had fully capable Machine Shops with the tooling to do repairs, fabricate fittings / parts and any metalwork.


Posted By: thirtyround
Date Posted: Sep 21 2022 at 7:16pm
I'm relatively certain the "BEBB" designates a section, unit or department of an established Beach Battalion. Beach Battalions and smaller sub units as Beach Party's were well armed with the full spectrum of weapons a US Army/Marine engineer unit would possess. Internet search US Naval Beach Battalions, incredible and very interesting history.


Posted By: DonFlynn
Date Posted: Sep 21 2022 at 8:03pm
sweet


Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Sep 23 2022 at 5:10pm
Early next month I’m going to Buffalo to tour the USS Croaker and look through their archives. Hopefully I’ll be able to turn up something interesting.






Posted By: Rcycles45
Date Posted: Sep 23 2022 at 5:49pm
Looks very nice, nothing better than getting an original carbine with some traceable history. Congrats


Posted By: Beezer
Date Posted: Sep 23 2022 at 8:55pm
My dad spent 23 years on subs and if he was still alive I’m sure he could tell me where your plaque was made.  He was a machinists mate senior chief so I’m sure he made plenty of them.  He enlisted and served on old WWII subs and retired on nuclear Nautilus class subs.  

Contact the Submariner museum in Groton CT, they may be able to come up with more info for you.  I do recall him talking about steel beach parties and shark patrols where they were armed with M1 carbines and Garands in the conning tower watching for sharks while guys were swimming.  It’s not beyond reason to believe that the carbine was assigned to a sub he was n and was gifted to him upon retirement.  I know when my dad retired he was given a piece of hull plate and a bunch of other stuff since the Skipjack was in dry dock and was being decommissioned.  He also was able to liberate survival dive knives from several decommissioned subs.  Those things were heavy.  Wood handled brass knives.  




Posted By: Da1Chief
Date Posted: Sep 25 2022 at 10:48am
Hi Guys,
I was stationed onboard the USS Proteus AS 19 (Submarine Tender) out of Guam for my first command back in 1982-1984.  The Proteus was a WWII ship that was in Tokyo Bay with 11 US Submarines tied up alongside of her during the signing of the Peace Treaty. (see attached picture with name of ships)   During her entire active-duty life, she maintained a fully functional foundry onboard that was in constant usage for making heavy brass plaques and small brass name plates, as gifts for reenlistments, presentations, awards, for both ship’s crew and any submarine that came in for refit. She was a Pacific Fleet asset her entire life and would have been available to perform virtually all repair work requests (except those needing dry-dock or full shipyard).  So, if there was a plaque, name plate that was made for any of the pacific subs, chances are they came from her.

 V/r

Da1Chief




-------------
Very respectfully,
Da1Chief
DPC,RMC,ITC(SW) USN Retired


Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Sep 25 2022 at 12:11pm
I agree with you Chief. The Proteus was mentioned in several of the books I’ve read that were written by sub vets about their WWII experience. Every time a sub came back from patrol one of the sub tenders would be critical in getting it ready to go back to sea again. The Croaker ended the war in Subic Bay and then the crew sailed her back to Galveston, Texas. Tenders at either end of that trip could have handled this tiny job.


Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Oct 15 2022 at 2:53pm
Well last week I finally made it out to the Buffalo & Erie County and Military Park to see the USS Croaker and look through their archives. 

The archives they have on Croaker are fairly limited due to her changing hands as a museum ship and only making it to Buffalo in the late 80s. It’s what I expected really, but the only way to know for sure was to look through everything they had.

Touring the Croaker was the real goal. She’s pretty different from WWII configuration these days. Updated during the Korean War she got a new sail and reconfigured bow. 

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/889FF43E-239D-4D5E-B9B8-FE413390D35F.jpg
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/53816BA4-7C95-4D02-A67B-E1733565BB63.jpg
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http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/7A59C3C1-2B66-4643-A9C5-8EE1C539E72B.jpg


Posted By: carbinekid
Date Posted: Oct 15 2022 at 2:58pm
Inside the Croaker…

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/EBAB1AAE-926C-4CAE-BB55-545D91067930.jpg
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/E7EEC5D4-66A6-4A25-ABB3-C697C9C6F4AD.jpg
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http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/2217/462599D8-EF19-4C01-AA25-5D3D8D978C69.jpg


Posted By: GotSnlB28
Date Posted: Oct 15 2022 at 8:38pm
Looks like a neat tour. Few years ago I toured the USS Cobia which is at the Maritime Museum in Manitowoc, WI. It was built at Victory Yard right before the USS Croaker; they're sisters. I really enjoyed it.



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