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SIGNIFICANT M1 CARBINE QUESTION |
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Louis Losi
On Point Joined: Jan 04 2016 Location: New York State Status: Offline Points: 367 |
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Posted: Jan 09 2023 at 4:42pm |
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Why was the M1 carbine adopted as a carbine, not a rifle? If you're certain the 18 inch barrel defines the weapon as a carbine, you would be wrong! What explanation is there for the 14 inch barrel bolt action U.S. "RIFLE, SURVIVAL, CAL. .22, M4" being adopted as a rifle? What explanation is there for the 14 inch barrel over/under U.S. "RIFLE-SHOTGUN, SURVIVAL, CAL. .22/.410, M6" being adopted as a rifle? The explanation for the two survival weapons is simple, a carbine is a reduction of barrel length from the longer rifle version of the M4 or M6 survival weapons. The adoption of a new weapon begins as a rifle, shortning the barrel results in a carbine. The M4 and M6 survival weapons are rifles originally adopted only having 14 inch barrels. The M1 carbine was originally adopted only having an 18 inch barrel, therefore it is a rifle not a carbine. During the trials, the weapon was defined as a "light rifle". But adopted as a carbine? The question is, why wasn't the weapon adopted as a rifle? Had it been adopted as a rifle, it would have been designated "RIFLE, CAL. .30 M2". Does this M2 rifle designation imply it is replacing the M1 rifle? Would having an M1 and M2 rifle cause confusion regarding ammunition, parts and repair? I believe the Ordnance Department solution to the problems, should they occur, was to designate a weapon that is a rifle and and incorrectly adopt it as the M1 carbine. Louis Losi |
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Matt_X
Hard Corps Joined: Nov 10 2020 Location: Phila, Penn Status: Offline Points: 770 |
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I'll start. Yes we see carbines and fusils back to the 18th century that were essentially shortened muskets. The M1 Carbine began as purpose built project at a time when military 'rifle cartridges' were necked down to the bullet. The objectives of the project were for an intermediate weapon that excluded using that type of rifle round. However the existing straight cased bullets did not have the range wanted for the new shorter, lighter personal defense weapon. Therefore the program began with developing a new cartridge (based on an existing cartidge that was close to what was desired). Of note. Within the past few months Paul Harrel released a video comparing .30 carbine to .357 magnum when shot from a Ruger Blackhawk. It demonstrated that .30 carbine needs more barrel length than the .357 to develop its full velocity. Not surprising since most commerical .357 is loaded for pistol use, and .30 carbine was designed for a barrel in the 16 to 20" length.
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thirtyround
On Point Joined: Nov 14 2016 Location: NE Arkansas Status: Offline Points: 191 |
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A little Humor here, Captain OCD,
Warning...Non-Technical jargon used... At the time, US Ordnance probably would have appeared quit silly to claim the M1 Carbine a "Rifle", as mentioned, it wasn't designed to be a rifle of full capabilities, as the M1 Garand. General George Patton's declaration: *General George S. Patton, Jr., said of the gun, “In my opinion, the M1 rifle (Garand) is the greatest battle implement ever devised.” The M1 Garand and Springfield 03 were the measure of a fully capable infantry rifle, one just cant stack the M1 Carbine against that as any equivalent. Besides "Carbine" designates the actual rifle more that any definitions, Army Ordnance had its methodology, back then it worked well that way. That said the M1 and later M2 served quit well in every theater of combat effectively, its hard to not find one or lots of them in war photos from WW2 to Vietnam. KYPD, JB |
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David Milisock
On Point Joined: Aug 03 2019 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 334 |
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I would add that the larger bore diameter allows faster powders to be used per bullet weight. In a rifle length barrel the 357 lacks case capacity.
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David Milisock
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David Milisock
On Point Joined: Aug 03 2019 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 334 |
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Not only did the 30 Carbine serve effectively yesterday I ran a 30 round course of fire from 6 positions. 15, 25, 50, 100, 200 and 300 yards with one of my 30 Carbines (a Quality Hardware) a Stag Arms S1AR15 M4 clone with a16" barrel and my new Aero Precision AR 15 M43 in 6MM ARC with a 16" barrel. All rifles had military iron sights. Out to and including 50 yards the fire was from standing maneuvering position, 100 to 300 shots were taken prone, no bipods, timed. Out to 100 yards shooting like someone might want to shoot back at you the old carbine did just as well as the other two. At 200 yards the 30 Carbine had a slightly larger group then the Stag Arms M4 clone, the Aero Precision M4E smoked them both. At 300 yards the 30 Carbine was out of its league, the Stag Arms would have made 100% hits inside 18" the Aero Precision kept all its hits with in 10". That's good performance for a piddly cartridge using about 15 grains of powder, shooting a round nose projectile about 2 calibers long in a rifle designed in a few months with no CAD, no digital calibers, no computers. Manufactured by a multitude of companies 80nyears ago with criss compatibility. BRAVO, well done!
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David Milisock
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4656 |
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I assume you meant caliper? I have several, but for measuring anything precise I reach for my Starett or Brown and Sharp micrometer from the era long gone by.
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David Milisock
On Point Joined: Aug 03 2019 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 334 |
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You bet. I'm amazed how the old M1 Carbine stands up today. Granted mine (not being collectable) have had lots of TLC. Damn fine work to stand up 85 years later.
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David Milisock
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floydthecat
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 13 2016 Location: Mississippi Status: Offline Points: 1998 |
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Unwavering objective to turn out a quality product. Very close and unforgiving scrutinization of the manufacturing process and the product. There were craftsman then and they built a weapon that had to shoot in all environments and last. They never faltered in insuring that, even to the degree of shutting down a prime, rejecting barrels by the thousands and making contractors share. Money was no object as well.
It’s hit-or-miss as to whether-or-not one can purchase a post war carbine that actually works and will last. They are out there, but you sometimes have to look for one. Current manufactures have to base a lot of what they produce on a price point, not quality. Some are merely marketing companies.
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David Milisock
On Point Joined: Aug 03 2019 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 334 |
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The one thing that stuck out to me the most was the change in fee I got when I first handled my rebuilt carbines. It's best to remember that both of my rifles were arsenal rebuilds, if they served and where they served is unknown, but 79 years have past since the date on the one barrel and 80 years on the other.
Now these were not collectable rifles but they had great receivers and barrels. The slides were OK and the modern version far enough along that the changes for resolving extraction issues were done. The rifles were pulled apart and decreased, every spring replaced, bolts replaced, firing pin, one hammer was replaced. Head spaced and test fired. The rifles felt like new rifles, they function like new rifles.
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David Milisock
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Matt_X
Hard Corps Joined: Nov 10 2020 Location: Phila, Penn Status: Offline Points: 770 |
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You're going to confuse the opening question calling them rifles! And speaking of those opening questions... I know little of the naming protocols of 1940-41. My guess is that naming was due to the cartridges. The sub-machine guns used pistol calibers, .45 ACP for us. The short barrelled survival rifles used .22 Long Rifle, so for clarity in the logistic loop, maybe it just made sense to go with rifle. ??? The new short, light rifle was also ".30 caliber" but clearly not .30-06 So I agree that its reasonable guess the ammo is named differently for clarity in the logistic loop. Unfortunately we know that at least once, such a FU occured at least once in the Korean War. |
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Louis Losi
On Point Joined: Jan 04 2016 Location: New York State Status: Offline Points: 367 |
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The M4 survival rifle and M6 survival rifle/shotgun in the opening post are not .22 Long Rifle. They are the centerfire .22 Hornet cartridge. Louis Losi
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Matt_X
Hard Corps Joined: Nov 10 2020 Location: Phila, Penn Status: Offline Points: 770 |
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Thank you. By design then I would think those very much are a 'rifle cartridge' although not a high powered one in the sense the military uses.
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thirtyround
On Point Joined: Nov 14 2016 Location: NE Arkansas Status: Offline Points: 191 |
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The M4 and M6 were produced, from my research, from 1952 - early 1970's, for a very small application of use within DOD. Both being specifically designed for one specific purpose, as a "survival Rifle", my understanding as for aircrews. Even though short barreled, a designation as a "carbine" because of barrel length had no bearing on aspect of purpose, use or definition. It was unnecessary and of no concern, as it is not a service wide issue weapon, but one of a limited specific task and function. The "M4 & M6" designation was enough to categorize the firearm, from others weapon within DOD. Just my 2 cents worth, JB
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4656 |
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The M4 and M6 designation mean nothing without the nomenclature. If you said "hand me an M6" you may wind up with a bayonet or maybe a Sherman tank or a dozen other things. There is the M1, M1a1, M2, M3 carbines that we know and love. The M4 carbine is a M16 variant. So the survival M4 is not a carbine. I believe a rifle, or Rifle, Survival? I have not found a TM for this. The M6 is neither a carbine or a rifle as per the ORD 9 SNL B-45 nomenclature: Rifle-Shotgun, Survival, Cal. .22/410 Gage, M6 It is alleged that the M4 and M6 survival rifle/rifle-shotguns used an oiler from the M1 carbine. Has anyone seen any documentation to confirmed this? |
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Matt_X
Hard Corps Joined: Nov 10 2020 Location: Phila, Penn Status: Offline Points: 770 |
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How about this Air Force manual cited and photographed here:
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thirtyround
On Point Joined: Nov 14 2016 Location: NE Arkansas Status: Offline Points: 191 |
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interesting and informative article on the M4 Survival rifle
https://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.php?smallarms_id=1296 |
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thirtyround
On Point Joined: Nov 14 2016 Location: NE Arkansas Status: Offline Points: 191 |
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4656 |
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Matt, good stuff! But it does not specifically tie it to the M4 or M6 survival weapons, It was included in a survival kit. Though a survival kit may have had one of those weapons, could the kit have had alternate weapons? Keep in mind I am looking to affirm or deny previously printed information that the oilers were supplied with those weapons. Now knowing the survival kits contained oilers, maybe we can dig to see what oilers were included. This may be a clue into the SW oilers.
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4656 |
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@thirtyround, Thanks for the links. There are also wiki pages and fandom pages on the weapons. I would like to find actual USGI information as many pages may not have all the information, or correct information. The M6 manual is out there in PDF form. It was awhile back when I searched, but I found no mentions of the m4 in publications I searched. I am sure something is out there! I did contact a seller of an M4 and was told there was no provision for holding an oiler. |
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Matt_X
Hard Corps Joined: Nov 10 2020 Location: Phila, Penn Status: Offline Points: 770 |
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Going by the way RWW wrote it. "The Air Force put a carbine oiler in Survival Kits when there was a rifle packed in them." By his statement the oiler was only included when a rifle was packed in. We don't know for sure if that information is from the Personal Equipment Officers Manual (AFM 64-6 Oct 1954) or another source. We could ask RWW. He seems the sort that is very much into documenting information.
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