The Carbine Collectors Club

Click on the image above to learn more about the M1 Carbine


Forum Home Forum Home > The Club > Carbine Accessories
  New Posts New Posts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login


Thoughts on AYP Magazines

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
New2brass View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

Joined: Nov 29 2015
Location: CT
Status: Offline
Points: 4007
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Thoughts on AYP Magazines
    Posted: Jun 01 2022 at 1:11pm
Thoughts on AYP Magazines
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/5600/AYP1.jpg

The AYP magazines were reported in the late 90s and were being sold through Northridge International.
Northridge imported a large shipment of US-origin parts from Belgium, which included 30 round magazines of different markings including the AYP.
In that shipment, there were also 30 round magazines which we know were commercially made by Tony Scherer.

This has led some to believe that the AYP magazines were made by Fabrique National because they are located in Belgium. It seems that no consideration was given to the fact that there were USGI parts as well as the commercially made magazines by Scherer that originated in the USA.

In 2005 CCNL 332 Bill Ricca and J.B. Powers revisited the 30-round magazines.
As to the AYP magazine, it was repeated that some thought them to be of Belgian origin, and others speculated that they might be USGI.
In September 2007, an unknown author penned a list of 30-round magazines for the CMP and claimed they are FN manufactured or Belgian/Holland without any proof offered to substantiate this. The author goes on to say they match USGI quality whereas Bill Ricca in the 2005 article states they are somewhere between the "M2" commercial magazine and USGI made.

Forum member pchanu, who is in France, states that the AYP mags are the easiest to obtain. He also states that they also come across "J" or "M2" marked magazines.

A nonmember Keith Tucker had purchased some linked 7.62 AP ammo from the CMP back in 2014 and reports of some links marked AYP. This may be a clue!

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/5600/AYP2.jpeg

I believe these to be M1 links for the Browning M1919.
Other markings found were MB/Z, P/6/V, PRI, RYT, DOA, ABG, S/6/O-L, SO/7.62 AND 6/L, M.1/B.P., J, FS, 7.62/MB/Z, M1/B.P. (The slash meaning over).
There were limited reports of headstamps on the linked ammo from 1944 to 1954, but it is not known what headstamp was on the AYP links.

Fabrique National did make a version of the M1919 which was called the FN30, but this does not necessarily mean that they made the AYP links. I have in previous posts pointed out that it seems FN marked everything they made. I have even collected pictures of pistol magazines with the elaborate FN logo to just the letters FN on the items.
So before any conclusions are jumped to, here is a picture of a link marked FN.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/5600/AYP3.jpg

Hopefully, someone may know something about the links and possibly lead us to the manufacturer. I have checked WW2 contracts and with over 35 factories producing the M1 link, and even more markings used, none match the link markings above making me believe the AYP link would have been post WW2, Most likely Korean War, Possibly later. The next question is if the AYP magazines were the same manufacturer and if they were made under some form of a government contract, or were they made commercially and somehow made their way to Europe?

The anatomy of the AYP magazine:
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/5600/AYP4.jpg


A: has angled bolster.
B: Square cut, all USGI have angled cut
C: No notch, all USGI have notch
D: Wrinkled follower not as smooth as USGI
F: No drain hole, USGI 30-rounder has drain hole.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/5600/AYP5.jpg

Other observation, look at the picture at the top of the post, notice the horizontal striations. It is not all observed, but common enough to mention.

It has been reported that there are reproduction AYP magazines. In looking at marking it seems that the font can appear thick or thin. This may be due to the amount of pressure or the die wearing out. Please check your AYP magazines to see if consistent with the above and report any possible fakes.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/5600/AYP6.JPG


Further reading:
CCNLs 265, 332





Edited by New2brass - Jun 02 2022 at 7:34am
Back to Top
W5USMC View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: Apr 29 2017
Location: Missouri
Status: Offline
Points: 2489
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 01 2022 at 9:17pm
Currently a possible fake AYP on ebay now, it has Square Bolsters.



Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member
Back to Top
Jond41403 View Drop Down
On Point
On Point


Joined: Feb 21 2021
Location: East Tennessee
Status: Offline
Points: 137
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jond41403 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 01 2022 at 11:28pm
Good eye wayne! This is the first time hearing of a fake AYP magazine for me.
Back to Top
Rebel92 View Drop Down
Grunt
Grunt
Avatar

Joined: Jul 20 2021
Location: Hattiesburg, MS
Status: Offline
Points: 475
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 01 2022 at 11:39pm
While the origin I do not know of, I do know that the many AYP mags I have perform well. I will compare them all tomorrow and post some pics 
Back to Top
thirtyround View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Nov 14 2016
Location: NE Arkansas
Status: Offline
Points: 39
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thirtyround Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 02 2022 at 6:10pm
    Excellent post ! Thank You. I have a DZ of the AYP mags, and yes the AYP stamping between a few are variable as you mention, I believe due to wear on the stamp tool or different die, but mag construction for each are exact.
    However the unique shaping /formation of the letters remain. The examples I have are reliably flawless in my USGI Carbines, rugged & robust construction on par with USGI IMO.
* I heard of them, but this is the first AYP fake I've seen.                                 
   As a note, I always fall back on this one thing... I always carry a short metal machinists ruler in my pocket when I know I'm gunning around... USGI 15 and 30rd magazine feed lips (inner edge to edge) are measured at 11 - 12mm apart. All NON USGI 30 rounders (except the KCI Mags and "true" AYP) always measure 2 or more mm further apart, that's why they are crap.
    Interesting observation: The KCI reproduction 30rd magazines have the crimp on the upper front magazine roll (see pic above -C) - as the USGI originals do...

Again Thanks for the excellent post, JB
Back to Top
pchanu View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit


Joined: Aug 20 2021
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 14
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pchanu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 03 2022 at 3:50am
I have just checked mines, and they are exactly identical to the one shown.

I got some of them from a guy who found a full box of them in France, some were really damaged, and usually crushed in the middle so we cannot fill them all the way without some work... 
Many militaria stores in Belgium can also sell them, sometimes.
Back to Top
Jond41403 View Drop Down
On Point
On Point


Joined: Feb 21 2021
Location: East Tennessee
Status: Offline
Points: 137
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jond41403 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 03 2022 at 11:05am
Originally posted by pchanu pchanu wrote:

I have just checked mines, and they are exactly identical to the one shown.

I got some of them from a guy who found a full box of them in France, some were really damaged, and usually crushed in the middle so we cannot fill them all the way without some work... 
Many militaria stores in Belgium can also sell them, sometimes.

Do you mean all of yours are like the one pictured at the top of the post with angled bolsters, or the picture Wayne just put up of a suspected copy with the rectangular bolsters? The reason I ask is because it is already known that commercial magazines made their way out of the US and into foreign countries
Back to Top
RWS-67 View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Jul 29 2021
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 19
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RWS-67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 03 2022 at 3:52pm
The biggest point being missed here is the USGI mags produced after WW2 & beyond is the dimple on the spine from all the manufacturers. Check it out.  It's been my way of telling.  Plus the angled bolster @ the bottom & the spot welds...Just food for thought...... Just my observations.......


e




Edited by New2brass - Jun 07 2022 at 11:11am
Back to Top
New2brass View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

Joined: Nov 29 2015
Location: CT
Status: Offline
Points: 4007
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 03 2022 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by RWS-67 RWS-67 wrote:

The biggest point being missed here is the USGI mags produced after WW2 & beyond is the dimple on the spine from all the manufacturers. Check it out.  It's been my way of telling.  Plus the angled bolster @ the bottom & the spot welds...Just food for thought...... Just my observations.......

That is not true on the dimple and the bolster. Further, there are foreign made 30 rounders that are angle cut split back, dimple, angled bolster. As to the welds, that can be varied and subjective.

There are a few magazines that are unknown, but could pass for USGI in the terms above. All of this will be addressed in a separate post when I get to it.

The purpose of this post is attempting to find the origin and mfg of the AYP mags as well as determining if there is a reproduction of them. One has to consider if the square bolster and other features were just a variation during mfg.
Back to Top
RWS-67 View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Jul 29 2021
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 19
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RWS-67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 03 2022 at 5:12pm
Really.... Please show me Why......The last Springfield show that  Mr. Ricca  attended went out of his way  to show me the  differences & other questionable things about the M1 carbine.. His word is my bible........
Back to Top
New2brass View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

Joined: Nov 29 2015
Location: CT
Status: Offline
Points: 4007
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 03 2022 at 6:53pm
Hardback magazines and the early splitbacks by Autoyre did not have roll crimped.
SEY and A.I. split back 30 rounders have square bolsters. I suspect that Bill said or meant that all USGI split backs had the angled cut. A square cut is a sign of commercial, but some commercial have angled cuts. 

Bill is a long time club member and contributor. He granted us copyright to his web pages, which you will find in the menu on our main pages.
Though he was not directly involved with CCNL 332 article on the 30-rounders, I am sure his words of wisdom over the years may have contributed to that article. You will find the information and much more in that article.

Like I said, there will be more coming in a separate post once I obtain all the needed photographs.
Stay tuned.
Back to Top
Why Carbines? View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar

Joined: Dec 27 2015
Location: Tennessee
Status: Offline
Points: 809
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 04 2022 at 7:05am
I've used a lot of older aftermarket 30 round magazines back when I was actually shooting (I pretty much don't now) and rarely had a problem with them. Now, some of the newer ones are junk, they tend to be of thinner metal design and don't even insert or stay inserted correctly. One other comment: the best thing to do is to try some of these items that are being rated yourself. What's the old saying, opinions are like a-holes and they all stink? Well, it's not quite that bad, but testing stuff out on your own is the best way to ascertain how a product will actually stand up for a particular users needs.
Back to Top
RWS-67 View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Jul 29 2021
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 19
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RWS-67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 04 2022 at 8:46am
Thanks Dan.  I will be looking forward for the pics.
Back to Top
thirtyround View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Nov 14 2016
Location: NE Arkansas
Status: Offline
Points: 39
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thirtyround Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 04 2022 at 11:04am
New2brass,
    Good scoop, can you elaborate or post a pic or two of the markings of you're Autotyre 30rd magazines. I have 2 split-backs with the stepped down back-end follower.
    There is some conflicting info out there from years ago about being marked AU and/or A.I. My mags are marked A.I. , they do have the front roll crimp.
    Respectfully, JB
Back to Top
pchanu View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit


Joined: Aug 20 2021
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 14
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote pchanu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 05 2022 at 5:11am
Originally posted by Jond41403 Jond41403 wrote:

 
Do you mean all of yours are like the one pictured at the top of the post with angled bolsters, or the picture Wayne just put up of a suspected copy with the rectangular bolsters? The reason I ask is because it is already known that commercial magazines made their way out of the US and into foreign countries

Mines are exactly like the first one shown on top.
I have also J and M2 marked, the M2 seems to be the least seen here, as I can see J quite "often"(but not really that often, it is still not common stuff here... and usually they can be sold for over 3 times the price of a 15rd)
Back to Top
New2brass View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

Joined: Nov 29 2015
Location: CT
Status: Offline
Points: 4007
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 06 2022 at 10:07pm
Looking at the "fake" on eBay, the side profile finish is rough and dull, the picture of the spine looks more of an original finish.
Checking past sales I see the seller had previously sold an unmarked magazine. The pictures used for the 2 AYP magazines that the seller has currently listed use the same pictures, but is a mix of the AYP and the unmarked magazine.
In contacting the seller I was provided pictures of the two AYP magazines and both have an angled bolster.

So the hunt for a repro AYP continues.
Back to Top
Jond41403 View Drop Down
On Point
On Point


Joined: Feb 21 2021
Location: East Tennessee
Status: Offline
Points: 137
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jond41403 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2022 at 11:08am
Thanks for the update Dan, I would have never thought I was looking at two different magazines in those pictures. The way he has it laid out it looks like one magazine photographed from all sides. Now I can erase the snapshots I have saved of it haha
Back to Top
New2brass View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

Joined: Nov 29 2015
Location: CT
Status: Offline
Points: 4007
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2022 at 11:11am
Jon, For clarity, the presumed fake on ebay was posted by W5USMC in the second post. The top post is pictures on magazine that I cropped together.
Back to Top
Jond41403 View Drop Down
On Point
On Point


Joined: Feb 21 2021
Location: East Tennessee
Status: Offline
Points: 137
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jond41403 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2022 at 1:24pm
Yes, when Wayne posted a couple pictures of it, I ended up searching and finding it myself on eBay and took a snapshot of all the pictures in the listing and it looked to me like the seller photographed all angles of one magazine. But now that I know the pictures are of two different magazines, that means the square bolster was on a different magazine, not the AYP,just as you currently reported. I hope I'm understanding this correctly haha. Because it was a suspected fake AYP magazine, I wanted all the pictures of it the seller had, that's why I searched out the listing.
Back to Top
W5USMC View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: Apr 29 2017
Location: Missouri
Status: Offline
Points: 2489
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 16 2022 at 1:08pm
Some of you may have seen that (What A Country) sells 30 round magazines that they advertise as "Danish GI". I contacted them and asked if they are marked, turns out they are AYP magazines. Ended up having a conversation with Damon from WAC, I asked if they had any hard evidence that they were actually Danish GI mags. He stated did not have any evidence and only based their description on what they read over 20 years ago. He did say that he recalled that when they were shipped to them (20 plus years ago) they were in a in a large unmarked wooden pallet box and that there was also a quantity of USGI SEY magazines mixed in with them. I ended up buying one and received it today, it is exactly like the other AYP mag that I own and exactly like the ones pictured in Dan's original post. 

Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.