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M2 Oiler

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Louis Losi View Drop Down
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    Posted: Dec 10 2021 at 12:19pm
The use of the letter M in model designation began on July 1, 1925, so items such as the Model 1928 Thompson submachine gun and the Model 1942 Johnson rifle were never adopted by the Ordnance Department but procured, or adopted, by individual branches of the military such as the U.S. Navy or U.S. Marine Corps. The Model 1928 TSMG and Model 1942 Johnson rifle are the manufacturers' commercial designations. Had the Ordnance Department adopted the '28 Thompson, it's designation would have been M1 and the WWII manufactured Thompson would have been designated M2. Obviously the M2 SMG and M3 SMG would have become M3 and M4. Had the Ordnance Department adopted the 1942 Johnson rifle, it's designation would have been M2 following the 1936 M1 rifle designation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 05 2021 at 3:29pm
@ David, Thank you, the Thompson stuff is not in my wheelhouse. The M2 had me scratching my head and thought several people would have jumped on the Hyde M2.

The double size was a surprise to me. The carbine oiler has been criticized as not having enough capacity.

@ Jack, thank you, but we have to thank Louis Losi for his many submissions over the years.
There is always something to be learned.

GotSNLB28 hit it on the head as to the SNL number as to what it was.
Group A was Automatic weapons, small mortars, carts, light artillery.
Group B Revolvers, pistols, shotguns, arms chests, rocket launchers
For those that are interested in the SNL system groups

Page 147 of Riesch’s 7th edition shows an illustration of oiler drawing.  Part number is C-64364.
War Baby II, page 578 confirms that part number C-64364 was changed “later” to 5564364.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2021 at 9:40pm
Thank you David. This thread has been fun and I have learned a lot. Dan always comes up with challenging "fun stuff".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2021 at 9:28pm
Originally posted by David Albert David Albert wrote:

Originally posted by jackp1028 jackp1028 wrote:

So, does that mean that the rectangular M1928 Thompson oiler is an "M1" oiler since the round M1 Thompson oiler is an "M2" oiler? I am so confused!!!??


The short (and also correct) answer is "No."

I received the same inquiry from New2brass via PM, and I sent him a longer answer, which he may post here. If he doesn't post it, I will do so later.

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com


Dan asked me to go ahead and post my longer answer. Here's some background that I think will offer some perspective.

It must be understood that the Thompson oilers come from two different eras of item designation. The oiler for the M1 Carbine originated in the later designation era. It had no connection to the earlier era, which was approximately pre-1929.

When the Thompson was adopted in 1928, major items were still referred to with an "M" prefix to an adoption date, i.e. "M1928." I believe it was in the 1930's that the year designation was superseded by the M1, M2, M3 designation. It may have even been 1929. The exact date escapes me, but I can't think of any items with designations later than "M1928."

If I were asked why the original oiler was not given a designation, I would answer the question with two possible answers, which are both opinions.

Opinion #1 is that the oiler was not considered a major item. This is evidenced by many other items, such as internal parts, magazines, and drums that were not given designations.

Opinion #2 is that the oiler, and many other Thompson items originated from private offerings in Auto-Ordnance catalogs, and were not originally designed or procured through government contracts. They existed as stock with Colt manufactured Thompson Submachine Guns that Auto-Ordnance had contracted for on speculation of commercial success. The government was not involved in the original design of the Thompson Submachine Gun. It was originally an unsuccessful commercial venture.

The original Thompson oiler was not designated "M1." I looked through 5 different SNL-A32's that I have for the Thompson, the first one being from 1936, and the original, rectangular oiler was simply referred to as "Oiler, Submachine Gun." That makes sense, since it was the only submachine gun the U.S. had ever adopted at that time.

After the M1 Thompson was introduced in 1942, SNL A32 listed both Thompson oilers. It referred to the earlier oiler as "Oiler, submachine gun, cal. .45." It referred to the new, round oiler as "Oiler, submachine gun, cal. .45, M2." In 1942, the Thompson oiler was apparently considered a major item, at least to whatever threshold was necessary to receive the "M2" designation. I believe they gave it the M2 designation since it was the second style of submachine gun oiler in use. Again, they did not designate the earlier oiler as "M1." If it had received a designation, it would have been designated as an "M1928 Oiler." Neither of these two designations were given.

That's kind of a long answer, but hopefully if you go back and read through this thread again, it will make more sense.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2021 at 9:12pm
Got it David somehow I did not read all of Dan's second post. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2021 at 9:05pm
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

What is the length of the pictured oiler? Is it a M3 grease gun/carbine oiler, in a package with a Thompson part # and a M2 Hyde nomenclature. By 1953 maybe it was determined that this oiler design was a suitable replacement for all others, either way I think the package is mismarked.


W5USMC,

The package is not mis-marked.

There is a ruler shown for size comparison in the photo that Dan included of my oilers.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2021 at 8:37pm
What is the length of the pictured oiler? Is it a M3 grease gun/carbine oiler, in a package with a Thompson part # and a M2 Hyde nomenclature. By 1953 maybe it was determined that this oiler design was a suitable replacement for all others, either way I think the package is mismarked.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2021 at 8:34pm
Originally posted by jackp1028 jackp1028 wrote:

So, does that mean that the rectangular M1928 Thompson oiler is an "M1" oiler since the round M1 Thompson oiler is an "M2" oiler? I am so confused!!!??


The short (and also correct) answer is "No."

I received the same inquiry from New2brass via PM, and I sent him a longer answer, which he may post here. If he doesn't post it, I will do so later.

David Albert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2021 at 8:02pm
So, does that mean that the rectangular M1928 Thompson oiler is an "M1" oiler since the round M1 Thompson oiler is an "M2" oiler? I am so confused!!!??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2021 at 7:51pm
Originally posted by jackp1028 jackp1028 wrote:

The only other "M2" .45 cal. submachine gun I can think of is the experimental Hyde, but I thought it was never adopted.


The M2 Submachine Gun was adopted, but for a very short time, and few were manufactured before it was replaced by the M3 Submachine Gun.

David Albert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2021 at 7:47pm
Ah you guys are too good!
See the second post for the crib notes



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2021 at 7:46pm
Originally posted by jackp1028 jackp1028 wrote:

So if this is an M3 submachine gun oiler:

Then this must be an M3A1 submachine gun oiler:


But looks can be deceiving!!


Technical bulletin ORD 415 from 1951 refers to the M1 carbine/ M4 survival/M3 greasegun/ M6 shotgun oilers as the "Hand Oiler-5564364"
Does that mean it was to oil our hands?
See CCNL 97
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2021 at 7:45pm
Here's a picture from a MG forum that claims it to be a round Thompson buttstock oiler. Looks round to me. Compare to the carbine oiler on the right.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2021 at 7:39pm
The only other "M2" .45 cal. submachine gun I can think of is the experimental Hyde, but I thought it was never adopted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2021 at 7:36pm
wasn't the M1928 oiler rectangle? Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2021 at 7:31pm
I thought Tommy gun oilers were a lot larger. Wait...how large is that oiler in the original post?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GotSnlB28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2021 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by GotSnlB28 GotSnlB28 wrote:

SNL A032 is for the Thompson submachine gun. A check of the list shows that part as "Oiler, submachine gun, cal .45, M2".


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GotSnlB28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2021 at 7:09pm
SNL A032 is for the Thompson submachine gun. A check of the list shows that part as "Oiler, submachine gun, cal .45, M2".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2021 at 6:41pm
New2brass,

Am I allowed to answer this question, or would you rather me sit this one out to see if anyone else gets it?

David Albert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2021 at 4:22pm
So if this is an M3 submachine gun oiler:





Then this must be an M3A1 submachine gun oiler:




But looks can be deceiving!!
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