Toy Carbine

sleeplessnashadow,

Thanks for the reference to War Baby III. I had not seen the toy photo before. It looks the same as my friend's toy Carbine, except for the front sight.

I will ask my friend to continue the conversation with Mr. Ruth.

My reservations are based on my inclination to challenge the status quo on such things, based on several instances where doing so resulted in the status quo being proven wrong, and whole new chapters being written on subjects that others had declared closed. We'll see what happens. Mr. Ruth may have irrefutable proof that its a Parris-Dun manufactured toy Carbine.

I agree that the uniform is the main clue in the photo. I will need to make a high quality scan of the photo to determine if any more specifics may be determined.

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

My reservations about Mr. Ruth's assessment are being presented to him by the owner of the recently discussed toy M1 Carbine. I'll let you know what I hear.

Here is a close-up of the uniform decorations:



In the meantime, here is what I know for certain:

- This soldier was in the U.S. Army, rank of Private, with 2 years of overseas service (I would think he would be a higher rank after 2 years, but so be it)
- He has a Combat Infantryman Badge

Here is what is not present:

- He does not have a Korean War Service Medal from the Republic of Korea, which began being awarded in December, 1950
- He does not have a U.S. Korean Service Medal, which began being awarded in November, 1950
- He does not have a U.N. Korea Medal, which began being awarded in December, 1950

Based on the fact that he appears to be stateside, and if he had been away at the Korean conflict for 2 years, I would think that at least one of the 3 Korean medals aforementioned would be present. I can say with a fair degree of certainty that the ribbons are not present.

Here is what I think, based on analysis of the ribbons and other decorations on his uniform.

- I can't identify the ribbon in the top position - It could be an Army Good Conduct Medal, but I think that is the one in the left position
- The medal in the left position appears to be an Army Good Conduct Medal, which began to be awarded in 1941
- The middle ribbon appears to be a WWII Asiatic Pacific Campaign Medal, which began to be awarded in November, 1942
- I can't identify the ribbon in the right position

Army Good Conduct Medal Ribbon Photo:



Asiatic Pacific Campaign Medal Ribbon Photo:



He also does not have a WWII Victory Medal, which began being awarded in July, 1945.

Some ribbons listed below appear similar to some of the ribbons on his uniform, but I was able to eliminate them based on when they began to be awarded:

- Meritorious Service Medal - Began in 1969
- Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal - Began in 1961

I'm fairly certain this photo was taken during WWII. If it was, then the production information presented by Mr. Ruth about these toy Carbines in the late 1940’s should be reconsidered as to its merits, and revised appropriately.

I welcome your input and analysis.

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

The information from Larry is inconclusive without proof. It's value is as a possible investigative lead on where to look or who to go to for more information.

That the uniform of the soldier depicted in the photo suggests the uniform is consistent with that of a soldier during WWII, there is no evidence that it wasn't taken after WWII but before the war in Korea.

With the info we have there is no evidence to support the toy was or was not made by Parris-Dunn. While the default assumption can be it wasn't because there is no proof it was, the flip side of this is there is no evidence it wasn't. Parris-Dunn marked their training rifles and drill rifles, this carbine does not have their markings. This does not mean they didn't make it. It means it doesn't have the markings Parris-Dunn used on others they made.

A good research project for someone to prove or disprove with evidence either way.

Jim

New2brass wrote: newsletters 105, 204, 291, 337 talk about an "Official Army Reject" marked stock, Also known as the Marlin Jr. Stenciled in Gold or yellow paint if I recall correctly. Something to the effect of what to do with all those leftover stocks? So they made the mechanism as you state and a dowel for the barrel/receiver.   A carbine collector piece now.   there is a thread here somewhere talking about it. Maybe someone can chime in, No access to Newsletters right now.  BTW, Welcome to the forum!

I found a photo of the "Genuine Army Reject Carbine Stock" marking that you referenced earlier in this conversation.



Does anyone have any additional comments on my analysis of the uniform, toy Carbine, and the comments by Mr. Ruth?

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

Courtesy of the GunBoards Forum

Yet another ...

Carbine Club Newsletter 291 pages 5-7

Carbine Club Newsletter 331, page 1

Who exactly Emergency Equipment Company in Grand Rapids, MI was is a good research project for someone. Current online corporate records do not go back that far. They are not listed in the patent database, which does go back before WWII. They are also not listed in the U.S. Trademark database which also precedes WWII.

As noted in Newsletter 291, Marlin supposedly used Marlin stocks having Marlin markings.

I do not know where each of these author obtained all parts of their information. I do not know where Brophy, someone highly reliable, obtained his information. How much of anyone's information ws 2nd hand as Larry Ruth was is not known to me. Larry's info wasn't an assessment it was 2nd hand info. Not indicated as such in his book. Often the only source we have is someone else's words. Which obviously isn't proof.

As to the photograph of the soldier in uniform, I leave that to others far more knowledgeable than me. I have no military background. I cannot render any opinion as to when the photo was taken based on his uniform.

Uniforms aside, this series of newsletter articles and the photographs I posted show not all were marked with the info of rejected, not all were marked with patent pending and/or Emergency Equipment Co.

At face value thie set of pics directly above, it does appear to be a genuine M1 Carbine stock. It has no markings. I apologize the pics weren't better. They were my first visit to Larry's years ago. He owns this one.

I'm not into toys, I'm overwhelmed with what I do already. I do have pics of other full size "toys" of old should they be of interest. I leave this to others with a parting photo...

Jim

David

"Refute" is a bit too adversarial for me. I'd like to see a researcher take this one on in an attempt to find a primary source of evidence as opposed to varying opinions on supportive evidence.

Finding primary evidence is sometimes simple but sometimes appears impossible. It can take a lot of time and commitment. I'm swamped with all the things I'm researching or I'd devote time and effort to this one. So many questions, so little time. We do what we can.

Jim