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Winchester Cartouche locations (fake Winchester)

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Jaybird65 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaybird65 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Winchester Cartouche locations (fake Winchester)
    Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 12:20pm
I am a new member from Comifornia and also relatively new in experience with the collecting of the M1 Carbine. I am looking to purchase a Winchester M1 from what I am told is early 1943 and mostly correct. One of my concerns is that the inspector markings and cross cannon is located on the left side of the stock opposite the receiver. Did Winchester locate them here. I can find any examples other than the ones located on the butt stock between the oiler and the pistol grip. I suspect someone tried to make this rifle look as untouched. Any advice would be appreciated.





Edited by New2brass - Feb 08 2022 at 7:48am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 12:35pm
JCB, what is the marking? Sounds like the location of a Springfield Armory (SA) rebuild stamp which also used a crossed cannon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaybird65 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 12:43pm
I just posted a picture. Thank your for your quick response.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 12:48pm
Yep, that is a terrible attempt at fakery!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaybird65 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 1:03pm
That's what I thought, but needed a second opinion. The shadowing of the letters and the location of the markings was a give away.  Thank you!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaybird65 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 1:44pm


Do you know it this receiver is correct of fake? It doesn't have the words "Trade Mark" under the Winchester name.





Edited by New2brass - Jan 30 2022 at 7:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 1:52pm
There's some good examples to get an overall sense of Winchesters.
Search under, 'Advanced' and set the timeframe to be unlimited.
The Newsworthy and Carbines of the Collectors subforums are probably where those post will be.

and
will be helpful in getting a general sense of Winchester woodwork.



Edited by New2brass - Jan 30 2022 at 6:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 2:07pm
At least one manufacture did have ordnance stamps in that location very early on. It was not Winchester.

That receiver has been ground.
If you take the action out of the stock and take pics of the 4 sides, front ring, and the rear we can tell you if Winchester or not.
If not, we might be able to tell you what it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 2:20pm
There is not enough space on the internet to point out everything not correct about that Winchester! Click the link below.

Edited by W5USMC - Jan 30 2022 at 2:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chipins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 2:29pm
Same guy has a few for sale on Gunbroker, this might be one of them. They all have serious issues like this one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaybird65 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 2:38pm
This is the one I'm referring to. I placed the order on Friday and it hasn't been shipped, although he wants 20% for cancelling. He claims it came from the George Moller collection. He also won't ship directly to me although I have a C&R and COE in California. Wants an 01 FFL to ship to which I would have no problem if it didn't have so many issues.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 2:50pm
Hmm, I am thinking this is possibly a very early Universal firearms.
I will reach out the the expert on these.

In the mean time, I believe it is against federal law to remove, alter a serial number.

You may have a few options to get out of paying a cancellation fee



Edited by New2brass - Jan 30 2022 at 7:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaybird65 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 2:56pm
You don't know how much I appreciate your help on this. Thank you! This rifle was like peeling an onion. Once I discovered the misplacement of the inspector's markings, a found the difference in the correct receiver. I'm sure there could be other issues, but can't tell without having the rifle to physically exam.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 3:01pm
Jaybird, If you are willing to shell out 2700 on a carbine I would do a little research first.
Basic understanding of the parts markings will quickly show that most of the parts are not Winchester.
If it was a USGI receiver we would call that a mixmaster or arsenalized.
There are plenty out there for less
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaybird65 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 3:18pm
You are correct and I should have taken more time to evaluate this M1 rifle. I'm grateful for people like you that are willing to share their knowledge with me. I have four other M1 carbines that I will now go back and make a more in-depth evaluation of the parts makeup. Currently, I would just like to find a Winchester receiver, barrel and components to put in a stock I already have. "Live and learn" Thank you!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 3:33pm
The thing with the carbines is that though very similar, that when you look close you can see differences.
The front rings are similar, but all different from manufacturer to manufacturer.
there are many different characteristics to the receivers.

Looking at the pictures on the Laguna website the first thing that jumps out is the receiver has scope mount holes just like Universal

The slide channel is unlike any USGI. Universal had that variation for a while.
The front ring marking are very similar to USGI, but it is what Universal did for a while. Same fonts, same spacing. Clearly not Winchester

I would put that receiver in the late 11xxx to about 87000 when the US was dropped from the front ring.

Heres is an example.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/Forum/uploads/6784/Universal.jpg

If you can look at the front of the rear sight you will see markings were removed .

I suspect the barrel will look like this. USGI barrels never has a square gas block, and never welded them on.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaybird65 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 4:50pm
Do you think this is a modified Universal or USGI? Am I safe to assume this is definitely not a Winchester receiver? Thanks again, you have been very helpful.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 5:09pm
Not a USGI receiver at all. Not a Winchester barrel, not even a Winchester stock! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaybird65 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 5:25pm
Winchester didn't have the flaming bomb insignia on their receiver. If they did I don't see it among the illustrations in Craig's book. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaybird65 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 5:49pm
What makes you think it's not a Winchester barrel?  Regarding the stock, I asked the seller if the handguard had any markings and he said no. What were the issues with the stock that made you come to that decision. I'm only asking because I'm a newbie and don't know. Thanks for the information, I truly appreciate your input. 

I wish there were some local collectors near me (N Calif) so we could study and share information on the M1 Carbines.
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