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Winchester Cartouche locations (fake Winchester)

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Matt_X View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 5:57pm
Riesch's book is a handy reference but not meant to be guide to fakes. 

I missed the final L when posting the first link
 People knew right away what who made that stock.  
Look through that thread including the side by side photo I posted as a self test/learning excercise.

Then go to Charlie's WRA stock charateristics I linked in my earlier post.  You'll start seeing Winchester made stock features pretty quick.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 6:44pm
Originally posted by Jaybird65 Jaybird65 wrote:

What were the issues with the stock that made you come to that decision


If you have Riesch 7th edition go to page 110. look at what the marking for Winchester is. The lagara website shows the slingwell and it is marked LW. There is no LW,listed there. but LW U and LWB  are which should give you an idea of who made it. Go to page 119 and your answer is there.
8th edition pages 108 and 119

you can also learn where to look on our webpages which is easily accessed by clicking the top banner picture.

As to the barrel the markings are nothing like a Winchester barrel unless it was a very late barrel and markings were added, ruining a barrel. I shared a picture of what I suspect the gas chamber would look like. If it does look like that then it is a commercial barrel consistent with that commercial receiver


@ MattX, first link fixed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaybird65 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 7:22pm
This guy says Bruce Canfield's book is the authority in M1 Carbines and has never heard of Craig Riesch. After a long debate, he suggested giving me the link to the auction house from which he purchased the rifle. That was the end of the debate for me. Any opinions as to who might be wrong, different information etc., between Canfield and Riesch. I just don't want to think I turned down the opportunity to purchase the holy grail of M1's. He claims it did come from the George Moller collection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 7:32pm
I do not remember seeing that carbine in the Moller collection auctioned at RIA this past December.
Please share that link.

As to Bruce Canfield. He was a member of this club back in the day, where do you think he got his information from. He even plagiarized one of our articles verbatim!

I would love to see in any way shape or form that Canfields book can be used to verify the carbine we are talking about
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 7:33pm
When in doubt, I'd go with Canfield. *Riesch is good as a general reference, but not 100% accurate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 7:43pm
Is it not very obvious the carbine has been messed with? The emperor has no clothes. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaybird65 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 7:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaybird65 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 7:45pm
are you saying you think the rifle is authentic?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 7:48pm
RIA throws out garbage like this all of the time quite often. Consider it a learning experience and move on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaybird65 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 8:00pm
Thanks, I'm a newbie in all of this, but have enough knowledge to be suspicious/dangerous and try to determine the authenticity of the rifle. I have purchased several M1 carbines lately and now wondering if I made the right decisions when purchasing. The members of this group have been very helpful in adding to my education and I appreciate it.
JCB
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 8:18pm
When RIA sells two guns at once they are liquidating them. it is not worth their time. Sometimes an indication of problem firearms.
So the price realized was 2875 or 1438 each. Clearly the bidders saw nothing in those two, George Moller or not.

Let me help you one last time and then I will have nothing more to say about that carbine.
It is a Universal carbine receiver and most likely barrel. The W.R.A. on the barrel is an embellishment.

the serial number was in front of the rear sight and was most likely removed. there are no pictures of that area. That is a big problem for someone!
The rear of the receiver was marked Universal Hialeah, Fla that has been removed and replaced with the Winchester logo and a serial from the Winchester range. The serial fonts are not even close to correct
That serial number range would be a type 2 receiver which would have a spring tube. Pictures clearly show that is not the case.
As a mater of fact the receiver is missing the slide hold back detent, all USGI receivers would have that feature. The slide has the pin. Try locking it back!

That LW stock would have no acceptance stamps as it was a spare stock.  The embellishments on both sides of the stock are fake and not even good fakes.

The only thing Winchester about that carbine is the trigger housing and maybe that rear sight.

I would put money that the recoil plate has a different marking on it somewhere unless it was buffed off.

Canfields book with only 120 pages on the carbine cannot possibly cover the information that was shared with you on these forums.

If the seller had quoted Ruth I would give him a little credit, but even there all of this may not be covered.

This clubs newsletters fill 10 3 ring binders based on over 40 years of research. You can find most all of this information in there. You would still be missing hands on experience of knowing something is very wrong with that carbine. The seller clearly did not know what he was buying. If he wants to play games when facts are presented and wants to hide behind Canfield then I would say run!
Further, his website does not list his address, even though it is very easy to find. I would not buy anything from a website without verifiable information listed.

If he wants to charge you a restock fee. Then I personally would be notifying the credit card company and opening a fraud charge based on the just one fact that was presented here in this thread.

A good seller would not want the bad press. A good seller would try to make things right.






Edited by New2brass - Jan 30 2022 at 8:34pm
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Smokpole View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 9:58pm
And don't feel too bad about getting stuck. Most collectors have gotten taken to one degree or another early in their collecting experience. I know that I did. Experience is a great teacher. Once bitten; twice shy!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kro1970 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 10:11pm
I would make a case for a full refund. The total value of the parts on this carbine is probably $500.00 and that’s only if the rear sight is real and in my opinion it’s questionable. Please do yourself a favor and follow the advice offered by New2Brass. As you learn more about Carbines you will realize what an expensive mistake you made if you keep it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaybird65 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 31 2022 at 12:39am
I appreciate the advice, but I'll lick my wounds and move on and consider it part of the price for being stupid. I don't think it's worth the hassle as sellers like this one will eventually get what's due them.
JCB
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 01 2022 at 1:59am
Originally posted by Jaybird65 Jaybird65 wrote:

I appreciate the advice, but I'll lick my wounds and move on and consider it part of the price for being stupid. I don't think it's worth the hassle as sellers like this one will eventually get what's due them.

Jaybird, don't beat yourself up. We all got started somewhere and ignorance was it. Which is one of the many reasons we have this website.

I'm the researcher and author of M1CarbinesInc.com. I co-authored the commercial carbine section in Larry Ruth's War Baby, Volume III. Both were based on research and experience with the commercial carbines. Universal's carbines included.

The receiver with the Winchester markings was manufactured for/by Universal Firearms 1963-1966. The font, size, and position of the U.S. Carbine, Cal. 30 M1 marking on the receiver ring was specific to Universal. As New2Brass pointed out, the slide channel on the right side of the receiver along with the presence of the U.S. indicate the serial number range. The solid left side absent the lightening cut was not done by any of the manufacturers contracted by Ordnance. Universal made the holes for the Weaver side scope mount standard on almost all of their carbines after the first year. If I could see a better pic of the left side at the front I might be able to identify the month and year the receiver was manufactured. If that area wasn't altered.

I'm in Southern California and fairly familiar with CA law regarding altered/removed serial numbers:

Section 22910 of the CA Penal Code

(a) Any person who changes, alters, removes, or obliterates the name of the manufacturer, the serial number, or any other mark of identification on any tear gas weapon is guilty of a public offense and, upon conviction, shall be punished by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170 or by a fine of not more than two thousand dollars ($2,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.

(b) Possession of any such weapon upon which the same shall have been changed, altered, removed, or obliterated, shall be presumptive evidence that such possessor has changed, altered, removed, or obliterated the same.


If you look up Section 1170(h) P.C. you'll see it's a felony. So it's a good thing the deal fell thru. If ATF did an inspection of the seller's premises they'd seize the carbine. The ATF library uses M1CarbinesInc.com and the War Baby series as reference material for the commercial carbines.

The seller being an FFL, he knows selling a firearm with an altered or removed serial number is a Federal crime (all felonies) that could cost him his FFL license and more. He could claim he didn't know but once he's been told he's responsible for finding out and not selling it until he knows for certain. It's his responsibility to find out then surrendered it to law enforcement. Then take the matter up with Rock Island Auctions using his receipt from law enforcement and photos.

He put you at risk, along with all of your firearms, of having to deal with a felony arrest for a firearms violation in California. Note the CA law indicates possession is presumptive evidence as to who altered the serial number. A judge might decide different but by that time ...

Calling ATF on the seller is not something 99% of gun owners would want to do. Gladly paying the 5% cancellation fee to avoid the hassles that would follow. Understandable, but if the seller continues this behavior he will be putting another potential buyer at risk of a felony. In addition to fraud. He could deny it but he's been told.

Notice he has Winchester s/n 1145085 listed for sale along with this altered Universal receiver with s/n 1103190. Take a look and compare the two.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaybird65 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 01 2022 at 10:31am
Jim, thank you for this information, I truly appreciate it and I feel very fortunate that I have become involved with the Carbine Collectors Club. The members have been outstanding in helping me understand this issue and the fact I didn't get involved any deeper than I did. 

I do feel violated by having to pay the 5% cancellation fee due to no fault of my own. I originally contacted this seller because I had purchased some accessories from him, like a magazine pouch and sling. I noticed he bought gun collections so I proceeded to tell him about my collection and my C&R & COE. When I placed the order for the infamous M1, he said he couldn't ship it direct to me and I questioned him due the fact I had others ship direct to me in the past. I then made arrangements with an FFL1 that I have used for non C&R purchases. Fortunately the FFL1 never sent his license and shipping address. When I tried to cancel the order and oppose the cancellation fee the seller threatened me by saying he was going to turn me into the DOJ for receiving firearms that should have gone through a FFL1. He originally wanted 20%, then went to 10% and I finally countered with the 5% just to get my money refunded and rid of him. It ended up costing me $134.

 I'm not sure what advantage having a C&R and COE unless you can receive C&R firearms direct. I do know that going through a FFL1 costs more, although you don't have to wait ten days to receive your firearm. Perhaps this law regarding C&R only applies to California?

This seller continues to insist that this firearm is "pristine" and that it is the best M1 he has ever seen. He justifies his opinion on the fact it came from the George Moller collection. 

As much as I would like to expose him to the ATF, I think it wise to let a "sleeping dog lie".

Thanks again for your input.

John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 01 2022 at 11:55am
John

CA laws are outside the scope of this website and forum. I refer people to Calguns and CA DOJ's Firearms unit for the current state of the laws in this state. They're a real challenge to stay current with. It is possible to use a C&R in CA but it gets a bit more involved than anywhere else.

We try to encourage people to pool whatever strengths they have here for the collective good of all. CA is a weakness on many different levels.

Obviously your call and likely for the best to avoid all the grief even the right decisions and obeying all the laws can bring.

Welcome aboard buddy.

Jim
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